Porsche Enthusiasts Club Forum

Hi,

Should be looking forward to getting 968 on the road with fresh service, MOT & tax but hey when did things ever run that smoothly?

Took car in for full service to a Kent Indie to be told as well as needing new rear discs & pads (ouch) my cam belt was loose due to a weak tensioner & that I also had oil leaks from the front of engine.
Only two years ago (just 4000miles) I had spent over the odds with another Kent indie getting all belts, cam chain, slipper pad & multiple oil seals needed for complete job. Went back a year (only last april) later to have the recommended re-tension carried out for an extra £35 (should have been free considering the original labour charge).

Obviousely I phoned them emmediately & is booked in for the 9th so they can look themselves. Shouldn't my cam tensioner, any rollers & all oil seals be in bloody perfect health after their stripdown? If not then why the hell am I paying all that to a Porsche Specialist????

It would be nice if garage finds their faults & rectyfies them completely with an apology but some how I'm sure it won't come that easy hmmmmmm.

Any thoughts please feel free.

Steve

Lets hope they do the right thing by you, if not you can tell us who they are.

I never trust garages after having too much experience of repairing what they cock up! Why pay £50 to £150 an hour for an 18 year numpty to work on your car? The older stuff is a lot more involved to work with as you can't plug in a computer to repair it or tell you what the fault is. With the classic scene, there is a certain repairer in Scotland who charged a guy I know rather smartly for very poor and crap (in my eyes) repairs on an old Ferrari 246. He replaced the inner and outer cills on a stripped shell and replaced 2 of the rear tubes. The shell had also been poorly grit blasted! How much do you ask, £11,000. I had had a quote to get the whole shell done with all new panels to be fitted, that was £11,000 with a complete finished shell ready for paint! There is a lot of not very nice people out there guys!
Alasdair

I wouldn't be surprised if the original diagnosis of a week tensioner was incorrect. There is very limited travel on a 968 cam belt tensioner and when you look at a car that has done quite a few miles on its belts the cam belt often looks and is too loose. Fitting a new belt and your case a tensioner makes everything look ok but after a few thousand miles the belt can look loose again due to the tensioner not being able to tension correctly.

This is due to worn top and bottom gears (cam and crank). The answer is new gears or on the tensioner arm there is a small plastic pad, Barry from Hartech will make you a slightly thicker one which will keep tension.

Perhaps your indie doesn't work on many 968's?

Rich

I've only ever had four jobs done by garages (not Porsche specialists, I hasten to add) - an engine fitting, two clutches fitted (different garages, different times) and some welding and brakes for an MOT. Only the latter was done remotely correctly, all four were expensive (forced on me by circumstances) and in the case of the second clutch, the gearbox hadn't been re-filled with oil, the alternator had been damaged and a CV boot ripped (all of which I got sorted out by him for free), and I would never have anything done by choice. I have recently bought a 2005 focus for half price because the seller was told by a garage that it needed a new head gasket (there was a loud "popping" noise when running it, it's a diesel), and he couldn't afford the repairs. I bought it as it was, and then found that one injector was loose; two bolts tightened fixed it completely.

If you find a garage who are honest and you can trust, hold on to them!

Too many garages will still look at a Porsche or Ferrari or anything else nigh end and see it as a cash machine without having any knowledge at all of how to work on the car, then bodge it and charge inflated prices just simply because you must a) know nothing about cars and b) be made of money.

And this is why the only time in the past 5 years the only things I've had a garage do is wheel alignment/geo (and that was at Tom Fergusons) and MOTs.

Everything else ahs been done by me with guidance from people who know what they are talkign about when needed, I know this isn't an option for everyone, but imagine how much I saved when I replaced the damper on my 924S Auto a couple of winters ago!

Meant to add..

Unless they come recommended from someone on here or another big forum I wouldn't go near personally

You have to take (invest) the time to get to know them and if they resist and rush you out, or quote Health and Safety and won't let you stand under their ramps to see what they are doing - then I won't use them.

Of course, that's fine if you have given them lots of small jobs before some mission critical big one needs sorting. I'd hate to go to a garage where I didn't know exactly who would be working on my car (any of my cars - even my cheapy Golf daily runner)

Cheers Rob

Ok update on original thread.

Just paid an arm & leg for a full service & new rear discs, pads, etc....

The bill just mounts up with parts such as rear dampening plates (8) rear caliper plate kit (4) also had a clutch slave cyl flexi pipe (was told sweating). Parts alone totaled £400, main service seemed good at the time of £260 but when you factor in the 4hrs labour for the brake problem (remove rear calipers, cut pad support plates & heat seized bolts to replace plates as nescessary) then accumaltion of another 3hrs for brake fluid, coolant (thermo) flexi pipe & clutrch bleed etc.......plus the lovely VAT at over £200 and I've left with a bill of £1300.

Hard to swallow seeing I still have to pay the previous indie a visit on the 9th for the loose cambelt problem & the front engine oil leak.

Told the wife & yes you can guess her advice on the next plan for the car!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem to me is the GREY AREA over not so much the labour cost per hour but HOW MANY HOURS DO THEY NEED TO DO THE JOB??????

Its the same thing I thought 2yrs ago when belts, chain & pad was done.

Steve

Hi

Regarding times for jobs...there is a big Snap-On book you can buy called "ICME Repair times"

Here is a link to an old one (1987) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ICME-Car-Service- ... 0532806234

That huge manual lists all cars and all repair jobs with exact time, down to 15 minute labour lumps...

Depending on the year of your car you only need to buy one for a slightly later year as the times dont vary as they are the manufacturers times...which do not change over the years...

BUT.... when I owned garages we used the ICME manuals as a GUIDE... the problem being that the time "assumes" you have all the manufacturers special tools...which most small garages will not have....

So what we did was look up a time in ICME and lets say it says 2 hrs 15 minutes ...we would "estimate" 2 to 3 hours....NOT quote...estimate....

It may not seem fair to you for a garage to do it that way but most do.....UNLESS you go to a main dealer when you can INSIST on the manufacturers time....as they ARE THE MANUFACTURER lol...BUT then you pay their HUGE HOURLY rates

Hope this helps

All the best Brett

im in kent and i havent had much luck ethir, but iv got a friend who got a little set up outside off canturbury, iv had him redo my belts, after another garage did them /water pump rollors and ingonered the leak from the front seals. cam chain and tensoner helle coil some treads, engine seals and head gaskit, and he been very resonable, trusting. offent 4 cash if i sirply parts. i can give you his number.

I empathise with the original poster - and also avoid using garages for my cars due to previous poor experiences of (especially) large franchised operations. My cars always tend to be modern 'classics' (Sciroccos MK1, MK2, CRX MK2, 924, Matra, 944, MR2 MK1 etc etc) - but I have been fortunate to find reliable local garages to me who are happy to MOT and point out work to be done (and on occasion be flexible with very minor faults) - and then let me do it.I'd much rather use these guys (who get a name for dealing with not 'run of the mill' cars).Last time I popped in - to organise an MOT slot, there was a nice modified Hillman Imp in the forecourt...

But....I'm not sure this way of doing business pays well as I use to use another garage near me in a small village but which went bust (lack of work) -despite seeing many wonderful classics and vintage cars often in their workshop.

My friend has a Merc' indy garage, and is very busy. I asked him when he was going to expand into the unit next door. He said no way, as once he gets bigger he will not be able to give the customer service he does just now. He has a solid base of regular customers and picks up repairs from other people. I think you need to have a relationship with a garage to understand how they work. There are several indy's around here that people swear by and despite what anyone says, people stick with their garage.

Standards of workmanship, service and scruples vary from place to place. Also, I don't think there is any rule of thumb when comparing nationwide franchises with small independant garages. I've had both very good and very bad experiences at each type of establishment.

I once took my BMW to a garage I'l call 'countrywide vehiclecentre'. I took it there because it was open Saturdays, could do a MOT and any work needed outwith the working week and at the time I couldn't be without the car Monday to Friday. The end result was a MOT fail for a worn front lower balljoint and the car being booked in for remedial work and a retest the next Saturday. The next Saturday came and the car was dropped off for the work and the retest. The car was collected later and payment made for replacement of the lower arm and balljoint as well as the MOT fee.

Six months later before moving to sell the car I booked the BMW into a main dealer in order to keep the service history up to date. On inspecting the car the BMW technician found that both lower arm balljoints were worn. I explained that I had got one replaced for the MOT but was met with the response: 'trust me, those have been on it since it left Munich'.

I went back to the original centre and let them know in no uncertain terms that I knew I have been diddled! As it was my wifes car she was the one who took it back once it had been arranged through the companies customer service department and it was agreed that somebody would 'sort it'. Apparently she gave them both barrels when she went in so ultimately we got two new lower arms and balljoints free of charged. The official line was 'the bloke that did that to you no longer works here sir'.

On another occasion much earlier in my car ownership journey I took my car to a local family run garage for a MOT. The suggested I should come back in an hour as they were going to start straight away. I went for a walk around some nearby shops and a coffee in an adjacent cafe. I caught sight of my car several times and it never moved once. Being young and naive I just took the MOT and fogot about it, initially putting it down to not knowing how long MOT's took and assuming that they must be very quick!

Conversely I've had good experiences at places like Kwik Fit and as well as little ramshackle setups in the dodgiest areas of town run by people who on first impression worry you that your car will be up on bricks minus every high value resaleable part when you come back!

Since then the main thing that has allowed me to trust Garages has been something very simple; knowledge.
Knowledge of local garages - living in an area for a reasonable length of time has allowed me get to know from other local people what the garages round about are like.
Knowledge of your car and it's workings - Through age, experience and a bit of rooting about I can now usually pretty much tell my local garage what is wrong with my car and what will need fixed rather than have them waste time with a diagnosis and possibly make up work while they are at it. If you present yourself as knowledgeable and informed they are less likely to take the mickey.
Now knowledge from being a TIPEC member and having

The moral of this story is that almost anyone can get 'stung' if you are using a garage for the first time if they go in blind. Doing your homework ahead of getting any work done by learing about your cars insides as well as inspecting what you can see really helps prevent this. Combine this with knowledge available from forums like TIPEC and advice you will get from owners of similar cars in the club and you will be able to tell what work your car may need, what you should expect to pay and the level of service to expect.