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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:48 pm 
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combustion is a form of explosion or it was when i was at school lol.

but i was angered so my train of thought went and had a blank spot.

all happy now :D

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:59 pm 
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Just a point on the intercooler, it should be born in mind the purpose, , when the compressor compresses the air it generates heat, which in turn expands it, the idea of an intercooler is to cool this air to make it denser therefore when mixed with fuel allows for a greater charge , and not realy for any other purpose . If you were concerned about turbo temperatures you could water cool the turbo and exhaust manifold , but of course you have a weight penalty. This all by the way is all very old diesel technology,way before petrol engine turbo's


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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:09 pm 
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colt45_gto wrote:
combustion is a form of explosion or it was when i was at school lol.

but i was angered so my train of thought went and had a blank spot.

all happy now :D


Nein

An explosion is an uncontrollable i.e chain reaction. Combustion is really just oxidation (of carbon in the common sense of the word).

Sorry to be a pedant ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:11 pm 
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Li Moo Bai wrote:
colt45_gto wrote:
combustion is a form of explosion or it was when i was at school lol.

but i was angered so my train of thought went and had a blank spot.

all happy now :D


Nein

An explosion is an uncontrollable i.e chain reaction. Combustion is really just oxidation (of carbon in the common sense of the word).

Sorry to be a pedant ;)

i must sue my old teachers :roll: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Right then - you won't let it lie will you! I've had a little think and....

Turbocharger - A turbocharger, often called a turbo, is a small radial fan pump driven by the energy of the exhaust flow of an engine. A turbocharger consists of a turbine and a compressor on a shared axle. The turbine inlet receives exhaust gases from the engine causing the turbine wheel to rotate. This rotation drives the compressor, compressing ambient air and delivering it to the air intake manifold of the engine at higher pressure, resulting in a greater mass of air entering each cylinder. In some instances, compressed air is routed through an intercooler before introduction to the intake manifold.

The objective of a turbocharger is the same as a supercharger; to improve upon the size-to-output efficiency of an engine by solving one of its cardinal limitations. A naturally aspirated automobile engine uses only the downward stroke of a piston to create an area of low pressure in order to draw air into the cylinder through the intake valves. Because the pressure in the atmosphere is no more than 1 bar (approximately 14.7 psi), there ultimately will be a limit to the pressure difference across the intake valves and thus the amount of airflow entering the combustion chamber. This ability to fill the cylinder with air is its volumetric efficiency. Because the turbocharger increases the pressure at the point where air is entering the cylinder, a greater mass of air (oxygen) will be forced in as the inlet manifold pressure increases. The additional oxygen makes it possible to add more fuel, increasing the power and torque output of the engine.

Because the pressure in the cylinder must not go too high to avoid detonation and physical damage, the intake pressure must be controlled by controlling the rotational speed of the turbocharger. The control function is performed by a wastegate, which routes some of the exhaust flow away from the exhaust turbine. This controls shaft speed and regulates air pressure in the intake manifold.

The application of a compressor to increase pressure at the point of cylinder air intake is often referred to as forced induction. Centrifugal superchargers compress air in the same fashion as a turbocharger. However, the energy to spin the supercharger is taken from the rotating output energy of the engine's crankshaft as opposed to normally exhausted gas from the engine. Superchargers use output energy from an engine to achieve a net gain, which must be provided from some of the engine's total output. Turbochargers, on the other hand, convert some of the piston engine's exhaust into useful work. This energy would otherwise be wasted out the exhaust. This means that a turbocharger is a more efficient use of the heat energy obtained from the fuel than a supercharger.

Explosion - An explosion is a sudden increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases. An explosion creates a shock wave.

Combustion - Combustion or burning is a complex sequence of exothermic chemical reactions between a fuel and an oxidant accompanied by the production of heat or both heat and light in the form of either a glow or flames.

Direct combustion by atmospheric oxygen is a reaction mediated by radical intermediates. The conditions for radical production are naturally produced by thermal runaway, where the heat generated by combustion is necessary to maintain the high temperature necessary for radical production.

In a complete combustion reaction, a compound reacts with an oxidizing element, such as oxygen or fluorine, and the products are compounds of each element in the fuel with the oxidizing element. For example:

CH4 + 2O2 → CO2 + 2H2O
CH2S + 6F2 → CF4 + 2HF + SF6
A simpler example can be seen in the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen, which is a commonly used reaction in rocket engines:

2H2 + O2 → 2H2O(g) + heat
The result is water vapor.

In the large majority of the real world uses of combustion, the oxygen (O2) oxidant is obtained from the ambient air and the resultant flue gas from the combustion will contain nitrogen:

CH4 + 2O2 + 7.52N2 → CO2 + 2H2O + 7.52N2 + heat
As can be seen, when air is the source of the oxygen, nitrogen is by far the largest part of the resultant flue gas.

In reality, combustion processes are never perfect or complete. In flue gases from combustion of carbon (as in coal combustion) or carbon compounds (as in combustion of hydrocarbons, wood etc.) both unburned carbon (as soot) and carbon compounds (CO and others) will be present. Also, when air is the oxidant, some nitrogen can be oxidized to various nitrogen oxides (NOx).

And I didn't look any of that up :roll:

Now what have you got to say :lol: let's move on......

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:33 pm 
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you pass john spot on A+


right back on track.. if they could have placed the turbo closer to the manifold they could have eliminated maybe 50% of the lag. there is a lot of energy being lost in the journey to the turbo ...

which is what the thread is/was about.

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:38 pm 
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blimey i'm totally befuddled now, from reading all the posts on this topic i think both parties should calm down and if possible apologise, ....... please !!!

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:50 pm 
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sorry lyndsey but i can only apologise for not hitting the ignore button on fen sooner. later to hear that he has well and truly attacked me from what saz has said. i don't see he's posts no more and care not to i think he needs to grow up somewhat.

but for giggles i made a vid testing theories and i must say...he is wrong. its more like a mythbuster vid quite funny really. i'm sure folk in here are growd up enough to have a little fun without being offended.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxibcnEc3sY

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:11 pm 
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john ward wrote:
Right then - you won't let it lie will you! I've had a little think and....

Turbocharger - A turbocharger, often called a turbo, is a small radial fan pump driven by the energy of the exhaust flow of an engine. A turbocharger consists of a turbine and a compressor on a shared axle. The turbine inlet receives exhaust gases from the engine causing the turbine wheel to rotate. This rotation drives the compressor, compressing ambient air and delivering it to the air intake manifold of the engine at higher pressure, resulting in a greater mass of air entering each cylinder. In some instances, compressed air is routed through an intercooler before introduction to the intake manifold.

The objective of a turbocharger is the same as a supercharger; to improve upon the size-to-output efficiency of an engine by solving one of its cardinal limitations. A naturally aspirated automobile engine uses only the downward stroke of a piston to create an area of low pressure in order to draw air into the cylinder through the intake valves. Because the pressure in the atmosphere is no more than 1 bar (approximately 14.7 psi), there ultimately will be a limit to the pressure difference across the intake valves and thus the amount of airflow entering the combustion chamber. This ability to fill the cylinder with air is its volumetric efficiency. Because the turbocharger increases the pressure at the point where air is entering the cylinder, a greater mass of air (oxygen) will be forced in as the inlet manifold pressure increases. The additional oxygen makes it possible to add more fuel, increasing the power and torque output of the engine.

Because the pressure in the cylinder must not go too high to avoid detonation and physical damage, the intake pressure must be controlled by controlling the rotational speed of the turbocharger. The control function is performed by a wastegate, which routes some of the exhaust flow away from the exhaust turbine. This controls shaft speed and regulates air pressure in the intake manifold.

The application of a compressor to increase pressure at the point of cylinder air intake is often referred to as forced induction. Centrifugal superchargers compress air in the same fashion as a turbocharger. However, the energy to spin the supercharger is taken from the rotating output energy of the engine's crankshaft as opposed to normally exhausted gas from the engine. Superchargers use output energy from an engine to achieve a net gain, which must be provided from some of the engine's total output. Turbochargers, on the other hand, convert some of the piston engine's exhaust into useful work. This energy would otherwise be wasted out the exhaust. This means that a turbocharger is a more efficient use of the heat energy obtained from the fuel than a supercharger.

Explosion - An explosion is a sudden increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases. An explosion creates a shock wave.

Combustion - Combustion or burning is a complex sequence of exothermic chemical reactions between a fuel and an oxidant accompanied by the production of heat or both heat and light in the form of either a glow or flames.

Direct combustion by atmospheric oxygen is a reaction mediated by radical intermediates. The conditions for radical production are naturally produced by thermal runaway, where the heat generated by combustion is necessary to maintain the high temperature necessary for radical production.

In a complete combustion reaction, a compound reacts with an oxidizing element, such as oxygen or fluorine, and the products are compounds of each element in the fuel with the oxidizing element. For example:

CH4 + 2O2 → CO2 + 2H2O
CH2S + 6F2 → CF4 + 2HF + SF6
A simpler example can be seen in the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen, which is a commonly used reaction in rocket engines:

2H2 + O2 → 2H2O(g) + heat
The result is water vapor.

In the large majority of the real world uses of combustion, the oxygen (O2) oxidant is obtained from the ambient air and the resultant flue gas from the combustion will contain nitrogen:

CH4 + 2O2 + 7.52N2 → CO2 + 2H2O + 7.52N2 + heat
As can be seen, when air is the source of the oxygen, nitrogen is by far the largest part of the resultant flue gas.

In reality, combustion processes are never perfect or complete. In flue gases from combustion of carbon (as in coal combustion) or carbon compounds (as in combustion of hydrocarbons, wood etc.) both unburned carbon (as soot) and carbon compounds (CO and others) will be present. Also, when air is the oxidant, some nitrogen can be oxidized to various nitrogen oxides (NOx).

And I didn't look any of that up :roll:

Now what have you got to say :lol: let's move on......


John

Your source is wikipedia is it not? hardly the most respected in the scientific and engineering communities ;)

I read chemistry at the university of newcastle so when i said that an explosion was a chain reaction was trying to give a more informed reply. That wikipedia description of an explosion is more for the man in the street..

Anyway back to turbo chargers (where's the popcorn? ;))

Adam


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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:31 pm 
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It's just a bit of fun Adam (which is better than where it was going), and anyway, most of us are the 'men in the street'.

I suppose that as I've been in the business for twenty years I could baffle you with bullshit about mortgages, life insurance, investments, pensions, inheritance tax, and ... yawn - have you drifted off yet :lol: But I do have some funny stories to tell :roll:

When I see people I have to give them a 'man in the street' explanation using pictures - and prodding them with the pencil to keep them awake! Everybody should keep everything simple or nobody will understand anything, ha ha.

Now, where's that waste gate I'm trying to fit to the en-suite toilet.....

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:40 pm 
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john ward wrote:
It's just a bit of fun Adam (which is better than where it was going), and anyway, most of us are the 'men in the street'.

I suppose that as I've been in the business for twenty years I could baffle you with bullshit about mortgages, life insurance, investments, pensions, inheritance tax, and ... yawn - have you drifted off yet :lol: But I do have some funny stories to tell :roll:

When I see people I have to give them a 'man in the street' explanation using pictures - and prodding them with the pencil to keep them awake! Everybody should keep everything simple or nobody will understand anything, ha ha.

Now, where's that waste gate I'm trying to fit to the en-suite toilet.....



:lol: John i nearly wet myself laughing at that.

John you will have to let us know when you round this way seeing your daughter we could all have a brew :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:50 pm 
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Hi :)

There is a guy in the States with a REAR mounted Turbo on a 928 and thats a LONG way from the V8, but apparently it works well, so I don't think distance can be a problem, but I know very little about Turbos.....Nitrous is another matter :)

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:57 pm 
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john ward wrote:
It's just a bit of fun Adam (which is better than where it was going), and anyway, most of us are the 'men in the street'.

I suppose that as I've been in the business for twenty years I could baffle you with bullshit about mortgages, life insurance, investments, pensions, inheritance tax, and ... yawn - have you drifted off yet :lol: But I do have some funny stories to tell :roll:

When I see people I have to give them a 'man in the street' explanation using pictures - and prodding them with the pencil to keep them awake! Everybody should keep everything simple or nobody will understand anything, ha ha.

Now, where's that waste gate I'm trying to fit to the en-suite toilet.....


John

I agree. I wasn't trying to start another argument or anything (this thread has more than enough of that already :roll:

LOL at your toilet wastegate funny :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 944T silly idea
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:02 pm 
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My son-in-law was around today Sarah, says he saw your Porsche going past his house this morning - he was going to wave, but then thought about how stupid he'd look waving to a total stranger. You might have seen him, he's got a dark blue Alfa Spider, my daughter has a light grey Clio.

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