Porsche Enthusiasts Club Forum

It is currently Fri Jun 20, 2025 12:23 pm
Classic Line Insurance


All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 379 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 ... 26  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:40 pm
Posts: 1239
Location: The little old town of East Grinstead, UK
TIPEC membership: 6519
Skype ID: grinlord
Jon, is this relevant to the 924 N/A engines too? I'm hoping to call you later for instructions on how to make a crank case oil breather hose for my car. I gather you recommend making it without the restrictive valve in the hose?

_________________
Alex.
'85 944 mostly working
'83 924 "Yin Yang" cheap track car with another member
'01 Vauxhall Combo diesel van for camping, working, and moving slowly

Computer Problems: At your WITS End? http://www.witscomputers.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 152
TIPEC membership: 0
jmgarage wrote:
I also suspect, the turbo technics kit, from memory, was the same kit of parts, and the part they can't get anymore is the Montego MG Turbo PCV valve.

The very best solution is a aircraft inspired exhaust venturi that plumbs into the middle of the exhaust system (if the system is a nice big bore) and then connects to a catch can, with the other side connected to the crankcase breather, as long as your exhaust is not heavily choked at full boost, this system supplies a vacuum to the catch can at all idle and boost situations, as well as venting the blowby gasses into the exhaust rather than through the engine, which in any kit will leave some oil vapour in the intake, and therefore oil residue and contamination to the whole intake and combustion and intake track.

The other alternative would be an atmospheric venting system via a catch can, which is cheap, but dirty and less than ideal.

Negative crankcase pressure is a wonderful thing, and can bring additional power to any engine under any opperating conditions, some of the benefits include..

* Turbocharger oil drain back flow improvement (sometimes worth playing with this and possibly restricting oil flow to tune it)
* Defoaming of engine oil (negative pressure causes forceful extraction of air from the oil)
* Less lower crankcase pumping losses (the denser the gas in the crankcase, the harder it is for pistons to move)
* Improved piston ring spread, especially at lower rpm and better sealing on the intake stroke throughout)
* Improved valve guide and stem seal sealing
* better oil flow throughout the engine
* less likely for even a poor seal or gasket to leak
* Less crankcase windage due to reduced aerodynamic vortex generation

All of which, to be honest, are the holy grail of a fast car, which is why Porsche used this system in Le Mans cars in the 80's :)

The downside is a single one... Unless your doing the work yourself, its not cheap and your engine needs to have good seals and gaskets to make sure it is efficient.

Ooops.. I just gave away a trick... Oh well, following my health scares, I don't want some of this stuff to be lost, so better in the public domain than being lost.


Thanks so much for this Jon. You answers are always comprehensive, massively useful, and extremely interesting.

I suspect you're right about the Turbo Technics kit using the same Montego valve - I'll have to get a photo online to see if you recognise it.

The exhaust venturi method you mention makes a lot of sense for a turbo car - the more revs/boost/crankcase pressure, the greater the extraction effect because of the greater exhaust flow?
I'm sure I read about drag racers using it and possibly NASCAR racers.

I'm fitting a custom large bore pipe anyway so it would be daft of me not to have a go at it - I prefer the idea of it going out of the exhaust rather than into the combustion process again.
The Montego system was ok on my mildly modified motor but I suspect it would be at it's limit with high boost from a large turbo.

On a personal note I hope your health is now fantastic Jon, and stays that way. You certainly have some tricks up your sleeve with these cars. It's great to see an experienced Porsche specialist with enthusiasm for these humble motors :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 152
TIPEC membership: 0
Some links to crankcase vent kit I have found. Not endorsing any of it but thought people may like to peruse through it? :-

http://www.summitracing.com/int/search/part-type/crankcase-evacuation-systems

http://www.topspeedautomotive.co.uk/index.php/crankcase-evacuation-system.html

http://www.et-performance.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

http://www.gzmotorsports.com/vacuum-pumps.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:38 pm
Posts: 838
Location: Somerset
TIPEC membership: 6379
How about one of these Jon? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181255652486? ... 1423.l2649 I'm sure you could emulate it?? Or bite the bullet and pay top Euro!!

I also now have this Hayward & Scott stainless exhaust system
Image

we could run my waste gate via a screamer pipe, run the crankcase breather via a venturi in to the larger front section and have the deleted silencer rear section for maximum burble. Looking for old school turbo race car pops, bangs and waste gate whooshes!!

I also like the sound of 1.2 bar boost. I have sent my letter to Santa this week with my Christmas wish list :D

_________________
Steve
1980 924 Turbo Series 1 - Alpine White & Guards Red
Omega forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 hybrid turbo, 951 ducted FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor/123ignition, Hayward & Scott, GAZ Golds, Fuch'ed, Quaife LSD


Last edited by Carrera RSR on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 152
TIPEC membership: 0
That programmable distributor looks ideal for your car Steve. Pity it's so bloody expensive! Translating the page it says it comes preloaded with various base maps and they offer after sales support.

Stan over on the owners club forum linked to the Aldon Amethyst system if you remember? That's the cheapest reputable similar system I can think of off the top of my head. I've used their recurved dizzies for years on tuned Mini engines with no problems.

http://www.aldonamethyst.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 152
TIPEC membership: 0
Steve there's also the MSD programmable ignition in this tutorial:-

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=37897&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:35 pm
Posts: 2288
Location: Bournemouth
TIPEC membership: 3266
No problem Wes, I don't mind exposing the odd secret, although I am actually thinking of putting together a series of books on the subjects of tuning each Porsche model.

Health is getting there now.. A few more months of medication and physio, then I should be 100% again.

Steve, that distributor looks really interesting, I might have to do some more investigations into that one.

1.2 Bar should not be a problem, I know that from experience on the 924 turbo engines, however I would only worry if your piston crown design might have an impact on the detonation tenancies of the combustion chamber. In theory, 1.4 bar should not be out of the question... But for that you might need my electronic control pressure modifier :)

_________________
Clean it, wax it, love it, ENJOY it... then fix it

Jon Mitchell
Independent Porsche Specialists
Technical Advisors to TIPEC
http://www.jmgporsche.co.uk
https://twitter.com/JMG_PORSCHE
http://www.facebook.com/jmgporsche


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:38 pm
Posts: 838
Location: Somerset
TIPEC membership: 6379
Mittelmotor are listing several interesting parts on ebay

turbo pistons with 8.2:1 CR http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Satz-Rennspor ... 2a33bb58ee

Electronic dizzy which I'm quite interested in. This will replace the need for DITC and the NLA crank sensor. Will also look OEM in the engine bay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-924-T ... 2a33adc486

Plus more

Their website also states a while ago that NLA bearings were now available although not listed in their webshop. However the webshop a does list lots of GTS parts including a magnesium intake manifold for €6000, 928 fuel dizzy and fuel pipes for 924 use etc.etc.

The above will go someway in explaining how they got their modified 924 Carrera GT to GTS spec make 310bhp. I now need to step away from the laptop with credit card in hand

_________________
Steve
1980 924 Turbo Series 1 - Alpine White & Guards Red
Omega forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 hybrid turbo, 951 ducted FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor/123ignition, Hayward & Scott, GAZ Golds, Fuch'ed, Quaife LSD


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:38 pm
Posts: 838
Location: Somerset
TIPEC membership: 6379
Wes wrote:
Steve there's also the MSD programmable ignition in this tutorial:-

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=37897&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


The parts list there are over £500 on these shores plus time to modify and fit. I wouldn't want it under the bonnet so wiring up under dash or glove box would be a must for me. Then add the mapping time to get the most out of it.

Whilst £730 for the Mittelmotor dizzy option looks spendy there may be some plug and play advantages. Looks like minimal wiring coming out of it. I like the OEM look. They suggest support to convert. They have delivered 310bhp from their CGTS. I sense a spendy season approaching

_________________
Steve
1980 924 Turbo Series 1 - Alpine White & Guards Red
Omega forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 hybrid turbo, 951 ducted FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor/123ignition, Hayward & Scott, GAZ Golds, Fuch'ed, Quaife LSD


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 152
TIPEC membership: 0
The pistons look good although personally I would lose the coating on the crown and allow the forged piston to absorb more heat. To me the heat conduction ability of forged pistons is one of the main reasons to run them, allowing more heat to pass quickly to the block rather than the combustion area. This point is debated fiercely though.
I would add ~£400 to the price and buy 3 sets of Omegas to my own spec 8)
88.5mm is the largest you can go with stock head gaskets. It's a pity the current Cometic design is limited to 88mm but I suspect you could get them made larger as they seem to be made to order anyway.

The Mittelmotor distributor is certainly the most desirable option for your car and the one I would go for in your position as it fits in perfectly with your other mods and your philosophy.
I would go for the Aldon over MSD as it's more like the Mittelmotor version but all options require mapping to your car. Mittelmotor will give you a good starting map no doubt.

I had a look at the Mittelmotor site and there are too many nice bits on there haha.
Maybe you could go the GTS CS route and source a Merc/Porsche fuel dizzy, then use the Mittelmotor 8 into 4 fuel block?

Then again I'm sure Jon has tricks without changing the fuel dizzy, like the electronic control pressure and maybe supplementary EFI at high boost. It all depends on your findings when the car is tuned, how far you want to go and what mods you can tolerate under the bonnet without ruining your excellent OEM-style look.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 152
TIPEC membership: 0
jmgarage wrote:
No problem Wes, I don't mind exposing the odd secret, although I am actually thinking of putting together a series of books on the subjects of tuning each Porsche model.

Health is getting there now.. A few more months of medication and physio, then I should be 100% again.

Steve, that distributor looks really interesting, I might have to do some more investigations into that one.

1.2 Bar should not be a problem, I know that from experience on the 924 turbo engines, however I would only worry if your piston crown design might have an impact on the detonation tenancies of the combustion chamber. In theory, 1.4 bar should not be out of the question... But for that you might need my electronic control pressure modifier :)


I'd certainly purchase your tuning books Jon. They would no doubt make interesting reading. Tuning CIS seems to be a lost art and there are probably owners out there that would appreciate it. I would appreciate any tuning advice, particularly on turbos.

I hope I can get my turbo safely up to 1.4bar with the standalone. It would be nice just to drive it again at the moment lol. So many things to do not car related and not enough time (and money).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:38 pm
Posts: 838
Location: Somerset
TIPEC membership: 6379
Email just arrived

Quote:
Dear Steven,

every modification you mentioned sounds good, especially the high compression ratio. Along with a programmable ignition, it provides a perfect torque curve plus a very good fuel efficiency plus insurance against knocking. That was the big difference to series II, that they raised the compression ratio, decreased the turbine and advanced the ignition timing aggressively under partial load in order to make the engine smoother and quicker accelerate. Since they could regard the boost with the ignition control unit, and control the timing accordingly, it was easy to achieve this good characteristic.
The new distributor, what is based on the original case to remain the authentic look, combines the possibility to advance normally while revving up the engine and retard accordingly depending on the boost. You can program the advance at pressures under atmospheric pressure (1 bar), what is typical at partial load/ cruising and retard at pressures above 1 bar up to 2 bar absolute (1,0 bar of boost). For high performance engines we have another special distributor what can regard pressures up to3 bar (2,0 bar boost). We run a 924 GTS in a German race series what provides 343 hp and it unfortunately needed indeed another ignition timing between 1,3, 1,4 and 1,5 bar of boost. Up to 1,3 bar of boost it never was necessary to further retard. For example, these engines can run with 40 – 45 degrees under partial load and only 25 degrees with boost.
If you will adjust it on a dyno, it is fine as you can do it while running the engine with a laptop on your knees (the distributor has a mini USB port). If you want a basic curve what already has been tested by us, we can of course provide you with such. If you wish we can even load it already in the distributor before we ship it. The distributor only needs a coil, nothing else anymore. Additionally, it has a second wire what can be connected to a switch in your dashboard or wherever, with which you can switch to a second curve you programmed in advance. It can be used similar to the original control unit for lower octane fuel, just by activating one switch.
But I guess, if you want to run 1,2 bar of boost, what I see absolutely uncritical, you will have so much power that the fuel distributor will not provide enough fuel anymore. I see the limit at approximately 250 hp. But however, I guess you will watch the AFR and adjust the boost up to the limit of running out of fuel.

If you need any help, just let me know. We are very well equipped with performance parts for the 924 Turbo. We even have developed CAD designed ported heads, flow bench developed and proven, what are 5-axis CNC machined, race pistons, forged lightweight rods, high efficient intercoolers, high performance turbo chargers, GTS manifolds and many, many more special GT and GTS parts.

Freundliche Grüße / best regards

Michael Wittke

_________________
Steve
1980 924 Turbo Series 1 - Alpine White & Guards Red
Omega forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 hybrid turbo, 951 ducted FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor/123ignition, Hayward & Scott, GAZ Golds, Fuch'ed, Quaife LSD


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:35 pm
Posts: 2288
Location: Bournemouth
TIPEC membership: 3266
Do it.. You know you want to..

_________________
Clean it, wax it, love it, ENJOY it... then fix it

Jon Mitchell
Independent Porsche Specialists
Technical Advisors to TIPEC
http://www.jmgporsche.co.uk
https://twitter.com/JMG_PORSCHE
http://www.facebook.com/jmgporsche


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:38 pm
Posts: 838
Location: Somerset
TIPEC membership: 6379
Thanks Jon. I like someone who forces me to spend my money :D

So this will deal with the advance/retard recurve we discussed previously, but that was using mechanical modifications with the existing distributor. However the Mittelmotor option allows for ongoing adjustment via a laptop and indeed a switchable map for high/low boost settings. Will your electronic control pressure box of tricks deal with the fuel issues on high boost or do we limit the boost/tune currently before the fuel runs out. I guess a 928 fuel dizzy may be the next step? Or do you have a plan?

If I go for this it will suck up a heap of cash I had put aside for your tuning visit. I'm not sure I can even afford the fuel to get me to Ferndown :roll:

I'll give you a call later

_________________
Steve
1980 924 Turbo Series 1 - Alpine White & Guards Red
Omega forged pistons, Piper cam, K27/26 hybrid turbo, 951 ducted FMIC, custom intake, Mittelmotor/123ignition, Hayward & Scott, GAZ Golds, Fuch'ed, Quaife LSD


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Modifying/Improving the 924 Turbo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 12:36 pm
Posts: 39
TIPEC membership: 0
How do they control knock?

_________________
'90 944T - 3.0L 8V


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 379 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 ... 26  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group