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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:11 pm 
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As some on here will know I also am into my Old Fords

ZDDP (well lack of it) is an issue for us as well

Here is the additive I use

http://www.burtonpower.com/oil-additive ... dplus.html

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Porker wrote:
My next engine oil change is probably going to be with this stuff:
http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-a ... &0&cc5_253
That's Valvoline VR1 10w60 @ £59.94 per 5 litres

Apparently it has a good amount of ZDDP (0.13% / 1300ppm)
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/

Would anyone care to comment?

It's a standard 220bhp 944 turbo with 130k miles on the clock.


Be careful with 10w60 oils, they maybe too thick. Don't assume that higher numbers are better. To go from xxW50 to xxW60 is not a linear increase in thickness but logarithmic. Read 10W60 article http://www.opieoils.co.uk/t-technical-info.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:21 am 
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http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-art ... 60-oil.pdf
Interesting reading, thanks!

The oil pressure is certainly a little higher now but seems more stable around 3.5-4bar at hot idle. Previously with the old 10w40 fully synthetic I was getting a lot of needle shake around 2.5-3bar at hot idle, which I interpreted as oil pressure being somewhat lower and less stable that I would have expected or hoped.

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:20 pm 
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Porker wrote:
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-articles/10w-60-oil.pdf
Interesting reading, thanks!

The oil pressure is certainly a little higher now but seems more stable around 3.5-4bar at hot idle. Previously with the old 10w40 fully synthetic I was getting a lot of needle shake around 2.5-3bar at hot idle, which I interpreted as oil pressure being somewhat lower and less stable that I would have expected or hoped.

Also Idle oil pressure is irrelavent, especially with the rubbish fitted oil pressure gauge on a standard 944. Bearing loads at idle are minimal.
A good rule of thumb for oil pressure is 10PSI (.6 bar) for every 1,000RPM anything else just wastes power & stresses the oil pump & gears. There are a few exceptions to this rule Rover V8s being one. But this rule has been pretty standard for years.
Mine (2.5 N/A) ran on 15W/50 Valvoline VR1 as it reduced the oil consumption a fraction, I think due to knackered bores. It is a high spec mineral & I dropped it every 6K when it was a daily driver (24K a year) or every year when it when to 2-3K PA.
On a Turbo I'd run a Synth probably a 15W/50 or similar. The Boxster is now on Comma Motorsport 5W/50 to hopefully protect from bore scoring & IMS failure.

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:26 pm 
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Hit me with it Jim, should I dump the 10w60 and get the 15w50 or a 10w50 maybe?

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:06 pm 
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I have the same problem, took advice and I have 10w60 Mobile 1 Extended life. But OPIE told me off and pointed me at their website, and Mobil support just kept telling me to read the handbook.

So, I have a very strong reading on my oil pressure gauge (2.5 Lux)

Am I damaging the car, I have done 1000 since the oil change

cheers
Neil


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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:42 pm 
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I would be careful, one of the race cars I worked on split it's oil filter on startup with excess pressure. The message took a long time to clear up :lol:
It probably won't do any harm but wouldn’t be my choice.

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:36 am 
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Gents
Am a little bit worried to ask this question, for fear of some of the answers, so Keep It Simple please :)!!!!

Have just picked up the car from OPC Tonbridge after an engine oil & filter change (Amongst other stuff)

Its a 1999 996 tip with 72k miles and will be doing about 5- 6k miles a year

Having been reading this thread I inquired about the oil.They have used Mobil 1 5W/50. "As this is what we generally fill older cars with" was the answer when I asked on the selection of the oil.

On the drive back I have 4.5ish pressure when driving and 2.5ish at hot idle.

My questions are: Is this weight oil to light should I change it to 10W? Going by John's advice Mobil 1 seems to be the right oil to use.
What about the oil pressure? 4.5 seems a bit high to me but the idle is OK. what do you think?

Thanks in advance and remember KISS :bounce:

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:10 am 
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Keeping it simple.. for the 996 I would stick to 0w40, 5w40, 5w50 or if you are really frequent with your oil changes, 10w40

Keeping it less simple... For the 996 and Boxster, one of the problems with the IMS bearing failures is that it is a sealed bearing from the factory, the grease in the bearing, when hot is very thin (monograde), and as the bearing ages, the seal shrinks slightly, so the grease runs out... However, the oil in that area is not plentiful enough so it does not get into the bearing to replace it... Now the interesting thing is, in theory, to avoid IMS bearing failure, with a standard bearing, you would be better off with a lower viscousity oil which is more likely to make it past the clearances between the bearing and its seal.. However, with a modified or improved bearing with the seal removed, the bearing would get plenty of oil and not fail.

A 944 with a 10w60 oil will not be damaged, yes, a 60 grade oil is more than a 5th thicker than a 50 grade, but it will not be damaged by the use of that oil.

The paradox is, I have problems finding an oil company I trust who put enough ZDDP into an oil to satisfy the 944 top end, however, a 15w50 with above 1100ppm of ZDDP would be ideal, but since the dissapearance of Mobil-1 Motorsport 15w50 nothing I have tried and used long term has satisfied me as being ideal.

JZMachtech, from memory, have been using Castrol Magnatech 10w60 for about 10 years (not sure if they still are) and I have never seen a problem of a 944 serviced by them (even though they stopped very recently) that had evidence of oil starvation, oil flow or oil pressure related issues on cars serviced there.

However, I have seen a correlation, a clear one at that, of 944's and 993's which are internally dirty during a rebuild, which is a stark contrast to the cleaner internals of a car run for years on Mobil-1 Motorsport, but I think that has much more to do with their detergent package rather than viscosity.

Yes Opie sell a lot of oil, but when it comes down to 944, 968 and 911 air cooled engines, trust me, 10w60 Mobil is much better than a thinner oil which may not have the ZDDP required to protect high load areas, in particular, the cam and followers in a 924, 944, 968 or 928 engine.

Having said that though... I am sure a lot of 944's have been running on all kinds of cheap muck supermarket oil for years, and many of them have probably gone through my workshop, yet I do not know when I last had to change lifters or camshafts in a 944 due to wear.. so.. fill your boots up, pay your money and make your choice! :)

However... thinking some more, there may be a correlation between low ZDDP levels in oil and cam sprocket wear due to the sheering forces between the chain and the sprockets, as well as within the links of the chain on 944S, 944S2, 968 and 928S4 models.. But I have never read any studies into the benefits of ZDDP in cam chains and sprockets... However, it is a problem which can be avoided with routine maintenance, but may be an issue which would explain why some 944 16v and 928 32v engines suffer with hooked sprockets more than others, other than the usual blame being with infrequent chain replacement.

Recently I depleated my last stocks of Mobil 1 motorsport, which was an upgrade choice for our customers over other mobil grades, and am still choosing if we should offer the Longlife 10w60 mobil-1 product.. However, due to my experience of mobil products, it seems to be the top contender.

So this whole subject has some interest for me.

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:36 am 
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jmgarage wrote:
A 944 with a 10w60 oil will not be damaged, yes, a 60 grade oil is more than a 5th thicker than a 50 grade, but it will not be damaged by the use of that oil.


Thanks!

I'll leave it in for 3k miles and dump it in favour of 15w50 or 10w50 with a high ZDDP content, next time around.

Cheers for the reassurance :)

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:01 pm 
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Thanks John for your answer.

Do you stock the 5w/50 in top up bottles? If so I will call in next time Im passing and pick some up.

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Not 5w50, but we usually have 0w40 and 5w40 as well as 10w40 top up bottles on the shelf

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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Ok Jon, will call in next time Im in Poole and pick some up. Would rather put a bit of money in a fellow members pocket rather than a national factor :lol:

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2015 Renault Captur (Kim's)
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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:46 pm 
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As I understand it ZDDP is effectively an equivalent of EP or extreme pressure which is used in relation to axles, specifically hypoid ones. The critical bit in most older engines is the nose of the cam & the follower & oils that are low in ZDDP are prone (more prone) to causing issues will scuffing on the cam & follower, some engines are worse for this than others, those who remember Pinto engines in Fords will know.

I've read imformation from various sources that M96 (996, 986) IMS failures are exacerbated by low viscosity oils, with the bearing being marginal at best & once the grease washes out & the oil gets in of being unable to support the load. Higher viscosity oils tend to assist the bearing in supporting the load, hence why mine gets 5W/50.
Currently mine has Comma Motorsport 5W/50 in it which is Sl spec & has 1100PPM of Zinc & 1000PPM of Phosphorus. Sensible money from carpartsgenie @ £28 for 5L. Also the cheapest source of brake pad wear sensors as well!

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2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV
2005 Porsche Cayenne S SOLD
2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee SOLD
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2000 Porsche Boxster S SOLD
1987 Porsche 944
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 Post subject: Re: ZDDP In engine oil
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Hi:
I just registered on to this forum, and very intrigued by all the lube oil problems and/or deficiencies of the ZDDP mistery.
I live in the US (Florida) and after some questions and answers here is what I found out.
1. The reduction in the amount of ZINC in the lube oils is the EPA's fault. Those are the guys in the government (Communists from my point of view) that tell us how to live or how to drive, etc. Their major concern is about the catalytic converter damage, specifically damaged by the high amount of ZINC and PHOSPHORUS in the lubricating oils.
2. The question now arises about the prices of a catalytic converter and an engine...WHAT IS CHEAPER? ANSWER: THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER, of course.
3. I am the owner of 4 PORSCHES (one of them for parts).
4. On my 1979 PORSCHE 928 I use VALVOLINE VR-1 20W-50 with a can of LUCAS OIL TREATMENT. This car is a track car with approx. 120.000 miles (US), without any engine problems whatsoever (cross my fingers), so far.
5. The next car is a 1997 PORSCHE BOXSTER, 5 spd, and a 2001 3.4 L CARRERA ENGINE. This engine had approx. 45.000 miles (US) on it. After enjoying the engine for about 3 months, the engine decided to give up. OIL USED: JOE GIBBS MX6 with a high ZINC/PHOSPHORUS CONTENT, MADE SPECIFICALLY FOR RACING. REASON FOR FAILURE: OIL STARVATION. The intermediate bearing was replaced. The new custom built engine will be a 3.8 L with all be bells and whistles and an ACCUSUMP to boot.
6. My other BOXSTER is a 1999 with a 2.7L engine upgraded from a blown 2.5L engine. FAILURE REASON: IMF bearing. LUBE OIL USED: MOBIL 1 20W-50. I tracked the car before and up to this point, I have had no problems.
7. On the matter of lube oil specifications, mainly ZDDP content, there are several sites to look at. You cam use GOOGLE to reach them. One is the MOBIL 1 ENGINE OILS DATA SHEET. Next is RISLONE ADDITIVE CONCENTRATE. One article I also found was ZINC IN OIL AND IT'S EFFECTS. Last but not least, there's a site that lists all the lube oils for every application, and it is: (SEARCH GOOGLE) shopthedude.com
I hope that this information may help you. :D

Take care and drive safely

Mike


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