Porsche Enthusiasts Club Forum

Hello, I'm just starting to research into buying / owning a 944 (mainly looking at an S2 coupe model), I've got hold of a few buyer's guides, looked at some website info, etc. Wanted to check with UK owners of 944s typical annual servicing or typical average annual maintenance costs given the extensive information out there ref:-

Timing and balance belt changes... (every 3-4 years? even on low use, or low annual miles cars because of degradation over time).

As above plus belt rollers... (every second belt change ? or longer?)

Cam chain and tensioner/slipper changes (check them regularly and have them changed when required, not sure how often that would be expected to be ? every 60k miles ? every 80k miles ? or is it also time related?)

water pumps (with the timing belt + balance belt and roller change? or only when it fails?)

clutch, (presumably only if/when it fails)

engine mounts (presumably only if/when they fail)

etc.

I understand the cost to have an independent Porsche specialist to do these can seem prohibitive because of the high labour hours required element (an independent Porsche specialist I talked to briefly said 944s can swallow up to an average £1.5k-£2.5k a year just to keep on the road, I believe he meant excluding tyres/tax etc, because I understand those costs) which seemed too costly for a limited mileage /weekend vehicle, not my main daily /high mileage transport.

I'm no real mechanic and don't have the experience, special tools, or garage workshop space/facilities to under take most of these jobs myself and whilst I have always had a hankering for a 944, under the bonnet seems quite complicated (compared to old Saab 8v turbos, simple servicing for an ancient "bodger" like me / good access, etc.) and probably it requires a lot of removing awkward bits with limited/tight access to do a lot of these jobs?.

Anyhow back to the question, please can anyone advise on their typical annual servicing/maintenance costs (annual oil and filter service) and the typical maintenance costs to have someone do the regular (time based) complicated maintenance jobs (i.e. belt changes/ roller changes, cam chain and tensioner, etc above) to keep a 944 on the road over several years? As I said, I don't expect to be doing lots of miles a year, but would want to keep the well maintained.

Apologies for the length of this post, I'm sure most of you will have lost the will to live if you manage to get to the end.

Thanks for listening.

And yes I have joined the club

Every car is different. As a figure for mine, I've just had a major service on mine:-

All belts, rollers, tensioners. Slipper pads, chain, water pump, CV gaitor, rear brake lines, coolant change, brake fluid change and gaskets. Labour was £65 p/h ( can't recall the hours spent) they had the car for 3 days, and the bill was £1200 odd inc vat.

Good questions.

A budget of £1500 a year for maintenance and consumables would be good advice. Buy the wrong car and you could easily spend the cost of the car to put it right.

Try and get along to your local region and speak to owners and get a feel for the cars before you take the plunge.

Hi Slow,
My first bill included belts, pump and some other bits came to £1200. The OE pump is £300 so that adds to the bill. I believe the belts every 40000(?) miles or 4 years, pump every other one. I've also heard that modern belts last longer, but don't quote me on that (insert disclaimer here).

One thing to look out for is the bodywork. This has been my biggest expense so far. When looking at cars take a magnet and don't believe anything the seller tells you (they may not know themselves). Also check the quality of bodywork repairs, my n/s rear sill/wing join I'm having redone because although solid it is the wrong shape.

Many thanks for the info/advice.

I appreciate the tip about body work/rust in sills / wings, etc and I'll try and be careful about that, but that's a concern on any classic/older car I look at, just that the guides emphasis that 944s can be costly to repair in those areas.

I'll try the local region members for more assistance and a chance to look over a 944 so I get a feel for where most of the bits/bobs to check are located in, under and around the car.

but just to check, whilst I expect to only do about 4-5k miles a year:-

- cam/balance belt every 3 years? (time related)

- belt rollers , every second belt change ?, or is it better to inspect them annually and change when they are worn ? if they are relatively new, would I be right to assume they could last circa 70k-80k miles (don't degrade over time like the belts do, so are more mileage related replacement items) so would need to get them inspected annually from them being 60k miles old?

- cam chain/cam chain tensioners, annual inspection after they have been on for say 45k miles and replace if worn/need replacing. ?

- Water pump every 60k miles ?, or better during the next belt/roller change as long as it hasn't failed before?.

I will be getting the oil and oil filter changed every year regardless of miles, but would I be ok to assume that the air filter/fuel filter could last longer (say every 2-3 years) because of low annual mileage?

Also will change brake fluid every 2 years regardless of miles and check coolant % antifreeze annually and replace every 2-3 years.

Transmission oil changes , I would expect these might be time related on my related an my expected annual miles.

Brakes, brake lines, shock absorbers, etc, would be condition/functionality related replacements.

I appreciate that any cars I look at will have a different history / state of repair , and I'll have to try and factor in when some of this work had been done previously into my viewing considerations vs price .

I also appreciate that I have really asked the classic "How long is a piece of string type question", sorry , but I was just trying to get a feel from UK owners as to the typical annual average costs for the more "routine" service and replacement items over time for a 16v 944 during ownership.

Any more advice/views would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers, and thanks for your help .

SlowDriver,

Hi and welcome. You seem to have the right general idea from your research. Belts and rollers are every 4 years or 40,000 miles and it's generally recommended to do them both at the same time, although you could probably make the rollers run to two belt changes if you are changing due to age rather than mileage. Water pump divides opinion here as it is driven from the back of the cam belt so if it fails it can cause the cam belt to fail as well. Some people say it should he changed every other cam belt change although I think this is overkill - I'd change it when it starts leaking. Clutch, engine mounts etc etc etc are up to you; you may want to change an old clutch prophylactically but most people change them then they fail. engine mount failure doesn't make the car undrivable so they are changed when they fail too. Cam chain was never listed on a Porsche maintenance schedule but every 100,000 miles is about right to prevent wear on the cam sprockets, and the slipper pads (top and bottom) should probably be inspected every cam belt change and changed if they are worn or discoloured.

If yuo are used to working on an 8v Saab turbo then you won't struggle under the bonnet with an S2 as they are simple enough beasts. A 10mm, 13mm and 17mm spanner will get most of it into pieces and there aren't many specialist tools necessary to do even more complex jobs. Budget-wise the best advice is ALWAYS to buy the best example you can afford as it will be cheaper in the long run (unless you want a project, and a lot of the apparently better-value 944's very quickly turn into projects when you start scratching the surface). Rust is the biggie on the cars; they were galvanised from new but that has almost entirely worn off by now and rust in the sills and rear panels can cost well into four figures to repair well. Don't worry about mileage when purchasing, always worry about condition and how well the thing has been looked after. Nice people sell nice cars so a car with a good stack of history and bills being sold by someone from a nice house who has owned it for a while will be your best bet. And I always advice people to buy privately as you then get to meet the previous owner, rather that from a trader when you don't.

Cost-wise, I reckon on spending around £1k/year on average on my S2 and that's worked out to be pretty accurate over the last 11 years, but I do all my own spannering so there is no labour component in there. That includes all costs apart from insurance, fuel, tax and parking. This year has cost me a lot more than that but I had a full suspension re-build and a rebuilt cylinder head in the last 9 months, all of which was off-set by having a cheap couple of years in 2014-2015. I am told that £2.5k/year is nearer the mark for those who pay others to do the work.

Going along to an owners meeting to see some cars is a good idea. Or, if you post your location on here, you'll probably find someone local who would be willing to show you around their car. I'm in East London and would be happy to oblige if you are local.


Oli.

Oli, many thanks

I'm based in East Lincolnshire and will try and get in touch with local region members to see if I could have a look around a 944, familiarise myself with what is where.

As regards an old 8v Saab turbo and working on it , that was a long long time ago (driven by necessity) and generally access to change "simple" stuff, like water pumps, radiators, turbos, filters, etc. was very straight forward when you needed to do it because you could fingers/spanners on it easily without having to dismantle too much to get at them (old Haynes manuals were pretty good at walking you through the process).

Oil changes very simple too.

Perhaps I'm a being overly worried (need to have anther can of "man up"!) about a 944, but access to bits looks fiddly by comparison. e.g. changing the oil means getting the belly pan off (tight to get underneath without a hoist/pit? but just extra time), or dismantling the nose to get to the air filter (que! ????).

Water pumps buried even deeper behind the belts, etc (scary for me to try and keep crank/cam timing fixed whilst taking belts off/replacing, etc. assuming I can get my fingers spanners on it with out having a hoist/pit). Special tools for belt changes/tension, etc?

But perhaps it's more my perception of hard to get at / tricky to do, verses the reality. plus I am a bit of a "bodger" when things are stubborn %*&"! to remove, so that won't be good. That being said, I would like to do the more simple servicing tasks

But anyhow, your advice is much appreciated and more reliable/relevant info because it comes from a genuine owner rather than me just reading the service schedule and guessing. It all helps me get a feel for what to expect and how many grazed knuckles I should look forward to.....or pay somebody else to do it.

again, many thanks.

Just on the clutch question- they're very expensive to change and most indys will want the car for 3 days to do it. The kit from Porsche is £600 and there is around £1000 of labour at least to get to it and change it. Added into this if your gearbox mounts are shot they're £100 each and there's 2 of them, it may be around £100 to rebuild the slave cylinder if this is leaking. I'd consider a clutch receipt to be gold dust tbh.

Oh, and a steering rack is the other nasty one- £1500 from Porsche, but i got mine for around £1250 just for asking for discount. A reconditioned one is no better that a 2nd hand one from a breakers; the shafts are not reground and will set about scoring the new seals which will fail quickly on a daily driver. Mine went at around 100k.

Check if the fuel lines have rotted by the rear torsion beam too, just as they meet the floorpan. It's a common bodge to splice in some copper tubing, and one that i personally frown upon.

Mr Slow, (BTW, put your name in your profile!)

There is little in the day-to-day maintenance of a 944 that you are likely to struggle with, by the sounds of it. I came to an S2 from a series of 1980's and early 1990's Golfs and it's very similar. Yes, some things are a little more involved but not any harder. You are right in that you need to remove the undertray to get to some things underneath the car but even then it's only a matter of (at most) 9 small screws, which will take less than 10 minutes - and probably less than 5 when you are practiced. (And - as a matter of detail - the oil drain is accessible even with the undertray in place!) Yes, the S2 air filter is under the badge panel but that's held on with 6 screws and comes off even more easily than the undertray; the hardest bit of that job is taking care not to scratch or dent the panel once you have removed it and once you put it down.

There used to be quite a lot of 'aura' about certain jobs on the 944, particularly on these forums. Changing the belts was viewed as being trickier than on other cars and certainly worth leaving to a specialist. Changing the water pump was akin to black magic. Thankfully most of that mentality has gone away now and people realise that they are simple cars from the early 80's which someone fairly competent can maintain. I do all the maintenance on mine by the side of the road outside a terraced house in London. In fairness, I borrowed a friend's garage when I did the clutch as he has a pit and that made the job a lot easier.

Mr Brightside's examples are good ones of things that are expensive. The clutch is an easy job - no part of it is difficult. It is however a very, very long job and will take a long time, which costs a lot of money if you pay someone to do it (particularly so if they see you coming and bump up their labour rates "because it's a Porsche" - yes, it happens). Parts can be expensive but there are lots of alternative fitment parts from other vehicles that are a straight swap and a LOT cheaper. My S2 has a bunch of BMW engine sensors on it and I fitted an oil pressure sender from a Mercury (Marine) engine the other weekend because it was a fifth of the price of the identical part from Porsche.

Go along to a meet and have a look at what you see. And if you can drive one then all the better as that is where they excel.


Oli.

It's also worth adding that the Haynes manuals for 944's are universally regarded as useless. However the genuine Porsche manuals are freely available online and very good indeed.

Maybe you really should open a tin of 'man up' and buy one ....

Oli, thanks again, I freely admit I'm a forum "newb." so couldn't see a "slot" for a name in my profile other than user name, but I've found a signature slot, hope that helps.



I viewed a very useful/helpful video on You Tube about servicing a 944 (German with English subtitles) where he was also taking rubber trim off headlights, etc to get the panel off, but again I suppose it's easier once you have done it a couple of times.

I understand Haynes manual is USA spec 8v engines only, but thought it may help with taking bits off to get access to other stuff, but will take your advice ref workshop manual and also keep looking at helpful You Tube videos.



Yes I'm working towards it.......need to look at a few first and check out info from local region owners, if/when I do buy one and we get a chance to meet up sometime, I'll buy you a pint

Well you definitely need to buy one now, if only so I can claim that pint!

If you are serious about buying an S2 then this one is for sale by a member on here and is just outside Cambridge:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/ ... s2/6293493

I've had a good look around this car and if I was wanting to buy one then this is the one I'd be looking at first of all, regardless of location.


Oli.

Some and lots of advice posted! So much so that I cannot put in so much as a pennies worth!

Being an S2 owner myself, they are great cars and very DIY friendly - however, I have always left the tricky bits to a decent mechanic that know's his onions, like the belts etc. Otherwise, minor servicing is an easy task...

If you can, find your car that has some history behind it (this has been mentioned in a previous post). This will afford you the time scale for the next big service (ie belts etc) and any replacement items done over the years. Also look at brake pad and disc wear before you buy, if you can.

Also, have a good poke around at the front, with the bonnet open - look for any buckled panels around the headlight and general areas. Also, visually check the alignment of the headlight light pods gaps against the front wings/front badge panel.

In the rear boot area there should be an original factory 'sticker' that is unique to your car. If this is missing, it could mean rear end damage - not a complete failure but worth a look.

When you do find something worth buying - take your time about it and make sure every thing works!

Happy hunting!

Dave
CT S2

TBH they are a lovely car to own, and on a very straight car £1kish is probably the right budget to go with.

Any car IME over 10 years old will require work. My current M3 here is not different. If I didn't do the work myself (partially out of necessity as you pointed out for your situation) I would have bought a 330i TBH and been done with it. I've probably saved around £800 in labour alone, albeit £500 of that is a major service.

My S2 was an example of a mediocore car. I think that cost me around £2.5k in the first year but I did knowingly buy it with a problem on the other hand. That included

-Engine swap: I gave a known specialist an engine, a cambelt kit and let him supply the clutch where the bill came to £1.1k with £500 of that being only the clutch kit
-Castor mounts; Mine were completely shot and a previous garage was happy to reuse completely shot nylocs on one arm after changing it ; they didn't lock at all and caused 'interesting' handling characteristics. But anyone here will tell you that they are a doddle to change.
-Heater matrix ; I dodged another pricey receipt by doing this myself but wow, what a job! I did combine an cooling system overhaul into it.

I think at the time I was given quotes of £600 for doing the heater matrix without parts, and I think a good garage would have wanted £80 in labour for the castor mounts.

While I hope the above doesn't scare you it does give you an idea of what it can rack up, but TBH the right Porsche is potentially a cheap car to own ; £5k+ to run a Dolly Sprint for 2 years anyone?

That said, a 944 is probably a better bet than a Boxster where things can get complex.