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996T comparison https://forums.tipec.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9840	Page 1 of 1

Author:	DavidL [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:	996T comparison
I've asked on pcgb so thought I'd do the same here: I'm getting deeper into repairs/reconditioning/mods on my 944T and I am wondering whether I might not be better to consider upgrading to a 996T. Lots of pros and cons mainly money which I won't bore you with but I wondered if there was a kindly soul in the wilts area who might be willing to demonstrate their p&j to me? More than happy to make a contribution to fuel/charity whatever. So anyone out there? Many thanks David

Author:	Clive993 [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
DavidL wrote: I've asked on pcgb so thought I'd do the same here: I'm getting deeper into repairs/reconditioning/mods on my 944T and I am wondering whether I might not be better to consider upgrading to a 996T. Lots of pros and cons mainly money which I won't bore you with but I wondered if there was a kindly soul in the wilts area who might be willing to demonstrate their p&j to me? More than happy to make a contribution to fuel/charity whatever. So anyone out there? Many thanks David David Not sure if you are planning to go to the NEC, however I will be doing the Sporting Bears dream rides in my 996 TT. If you are then I would be happy to give you a blast and you donate the petrol money to charity I have had a 44T in the past and the only thing I would say is they are a world apart, no matter how well modded a 44T is. Get a good one and you can stay solvent, any issues though and the costs are on a biblical level !!

Author:	DavidL [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
Thanks for the offer Clive. I'll see what my diary allows and be in touch if I can make it.

Author:	Niffty951 [ Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
Clive993 wrote: I have had a 44T in the past and the only thing I would say is they are a world apart, no matter how well modded a 44T is. I'm not certain about that but I won’t speculate further just yet. If I manage to keep both cars (I may have to sell one) I intend to put it to the test before the year is out, I just can't decide which car to drive to make it a fair test! Both cars are pretty hard to get off the line cleanly and while the 944 takes more work to corner fast I think it’s easier to drive at the limit because it’s more predictable. The 996 has literally flabbergasting cornering ability (even once the mechanical grip has run out) but I can never be 100% certain how it will react at the limit so I never feel like I'm getting the most out of it like I do behind the wheel of the 944. I get the sense I would probably still feel like I wasn't getting the most out of it right up to the point that I went through the hedge backwards. Perhaps a few timed laps with me at the wheel of one and then the other (to try and remove driver skill as far as possible) followed by a straight line drag race with me and another trusted driver? Time for an overdue modified 944t vs 996tt review I think (many have asked): As far as a road test goes the 996 falls down on the gear change which feels very plastic next to the weighted, smooth, oiled feel of the 944, it also falls down on low speed fun (its near impossible to wiggle the tail out of a 2nd gear corner for example). Oh and I don’t like the fact the traction light still flashes at you (suggesting electronic interference) even with the PSM switched off. The steering and handling characteristics are fantastic in both cars, there is better communication letting you know what each wheel is up to in the 944 but the 996 has better communication from the chassis telling you where the weight is and how hard it is working, you can really feel it straining and moving, dipping and diving (which I like). It’s actually amazing how similar in some ways the driving experience is compared to a range of other sports cars. You can definitely tell from the driving experience that both cars came from the same company but I can’t put my finger on why. Perhaps just the same balance of priorities when developed? The 996 is better designed (the benefit of 20years knowledge no doubt) I love all the little details like the plastic clips that the screws screw into on the front of the car so the screws don’t get rusted in and the plastic covers around the wheel arches and underneath that appear to have had a lot of thought put into them to prevent dirt traps. I can’t decide which is better looking. It’s like comparing two pieces of art work. There are things I like about both and one does not detract from the other. I LOVE the shape of the spoiler on the 996tt, it’s something you can only fully appreciate when you take the time to clean it and look closely at the way all the curves flow into one another. Magnificent. Then I see the 944 again and I remember why I love it, it looks so ‘real’ compared to modern cars. Ok now the tables turn to a place the 944 cannot compete with. The engine in the 996tt is a gem. It revs light and fast like a racer but is as smooth as a Bentley, sounds refined but aggressive and just makes you feel like you are always in the right gear. I think you could probably leave it in fourth and keep pace with 90% of road cars driven flat out on 90% of tracks. It will pull strongly from below 30mph to 135ish. Another amazing measure is when I’m waiting for the car to warm up in the morning. I play a game where I drive as quickly as possible without going over 3000rpm or letting the turbos spin fully. It is SHOCKING how quickly you can cover ground and pass cars without ever going over 3000rpm. Just makes you realise HOW good it is. I’ve never had another car I could do that in. All that said there’s a thrill in a 4 pot turbo delivery that is often underrated by sports car fans. As a car to own and live with the 996tt with its beautiful interior, cruise control, heated seats and aircon is a lovely place to be on a cold winters night or early morning. The back seats also have more leg room in the 996 but more headroom in the 944 and the luggage capacity is better in the 944 (although the 996 has proved pretty good). The 944 has the edge on driving position and the seats are still better in the 944. I love those massive side bolsters on the 80’s sports seats but being a short fellow, the 996 allows a better adjustment to the drivers size. I have to adapt to the car in the 944, accept more what I am given than in the 996. Lastly, because this is the real world.. money. Financially if you could have either the 944 turbo makes no sense next to a 996. It’s almost identical in terms of service costs, 20 years older so has more non service items to replace/maintain (creating a constant slow drain on your resources and gives zero value back for any of that money invested). In comparison a 996 if treated right will almost definitely cost a lot less to run and hold its value (I hope) much better. You just need to find the initial outlay to procure one. The only downside to a 996tt financially over a 944 is that feeling you’re driving something of value which must be preserved. Something about the 944 encourages you to use and abuse it more when you drive it, fling it into roundabouts. The 996 feels (at least to me) like a car I have to drive with measured speed, driving it fast is like dancing even when it slides its smooth. Pleasure comes from cutting the perfect line through the apex not booting the throttle as early as possible and holdiong the slide, I always take my time changing gear and roll smoothly on and off the throttle. In the 944 my gear changes are a constant mission to beat DSG. I guess that sums it up best really. Both forms of driving are pleasureable.. which do you enjoy most.

Author:	garyw [ Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
superb write up

Author:	Lee 944 [ Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
Nice write up Nifty, I'm glad you took the time to type it. In the last paragraph you talk about the cost in the real world, are you saying that you think when it comes time to sell your cars, the 944 will have lost more money in depreciation then the 996, or is it simply the servicing costs that will have cost you more? What about the potential bills for a catastrophic failure? Or even minor things like calipers or exhaust? Does the 996 costs match the 944? What do you think? BTW, you're not going to get a debate from me, I just wanted to know what you think.

Author:	AerialAndy [ Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
Nifty you should put some articles in All Torque thats a lovely bit of writing there. Would you say though you've got to spend 996tt money to get a 944t to similar performance levels? That's whats holding me back at the moment from developing my '44 further anyway.

Author:	Niffty951 [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
Catching up on a few of those responses, on the cost I think its 'unlikely' either car will depreciate much further but looking at the values of other models of 911 turbo the 996 turbo is currently the cheapest you can buy. With the benefit of being one of the best engineered cars in the history of Porsche I think there is therefore a good chance that the value will rise again in a few years (as the market picks up) and it'll fall back in line, hopefully somewhere between the values of the 964 and the 993. This may all be wishful thinking but I think there's a damn sight more chance than a 944 turbo fetching 10k more. Also on a running costs note, yes parts like brakes are more expensive on the 996 but the servicing costs are almost identical and the 996 doesn't have all the leaks and rusty bits to replace periodically. Mine is an early one but it still all looks as clean and new underneath as a 6 month old 997 in a Porsche showroom (no really you could take a picture of both and it would be hard to guess which one was 10 years old). As for performance, experience tells me that it you cannot build a 400hp 944 without spending more than I paid for the 996 but even with both the cars I’ve owned proving me wrong I maintain that it would be ‘possible’ to build a 996 rivaling 944 for much less. With a good eye you can pick up a solid m030 944t for 5k and the parts I think you essentially need to do it (bb turbo £1.5k, injectors £300, vittesse maf £1k, fuel pump £100, pressure regulator £50 (2nd hand), Tial 46mm wastegate £300-400) come to only £3.5k ish plus fitting. On paper that’s a 380-400hp car with perfectly adequate brakes and suspension for £10k. I have thought about this quite hard and whilst you could argue many of the other standard parts are less than ideal, I’ve seen first hand that nothing else on the car HAS to be changed to operate at that level. The m030 brakes if working correctly are quite adequate for road and light track day use without fading, the m030 suspension in good condition is fantastic and the clutch on my car is standard and has lasted 7 years with all sorts of experimentation at up to and over 400hp. As for the engine and exhaust Paul’s, Hartech’s and my 3.2 combined all proved at various stages that the standard radiator, intake system and exhaust (except those parts listed above) could handle the flow for that power level. Unfortunately the real world just doesn’t seem to work like the one of paper and everything that can go wrong with major tuning work, unquestionably will do. The brakes, suspension, bushes, wishbones, fuel lines, water pump, oil pump, head gasket, bores, sensors, wiring, valves, hoses, clips, seals, testing, tweaking, fiddling and tuning to actually get a 30year old car running right at that level (160hp per litre), which is more than any production car ever made. Will always end up costing you triple what you thought it would. That is why this time when the opportunity came up to buy an already finished car this time around. I JUMPED AT IT! But as an ending note to consider. A 996 has 270bhp per ton and 254 torques. My current 944 has 299.98 bhp per ton and 280 torques. p.s. I’m a dyslexic with a science and maths brain, writing is not my strong point. But thank you for the kind words.

Author:	Niffty951 [ Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 996T comparison
Niffty951 wrote: But as an ending note to consider. A 996 has 270bhp per ton and 254 torques. My current 944 has 299.98 bhp per ton and 280 torques. Well guys, I raced them.. the 996t is faster. Litterally nothing I could do to beat it. It was close, there wasn't much in it at all in terms of pulling a gap but the LONG power band on the standard 420 car made the 944 just always felt like it was in the wrong gear. Even using the brake and throttle together slightly to encourage boost before you release the brake and go the 996 started to pull away at any speed before the 944 felt like it was holding the gap steady. Then at the end of each gear in the 944 you could feel the 996 starting to extend the gap again. Change at 6000rpm and the 996 was gone, change at 7000rpm and you feel like your past your best and the 996 is eating ground. These differences were small but it hurt my pride in the 944 where I was working a lot harder. It all adds up to an answer that the 996t is just out of reach I'm afraid. Hense I'm now keeping the 996 and it will be re-mapped very shortly for another 100ft/lb of torque 944 is now sold and so ends my time with them (unless my old 3.2 comes back up for sale) which I'd buy back for the love of it.

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