Porsche Enthusiasts Club Forum

The events and issues that were exposed in the underlying topic "HARTECH" below show exactly why a "GRUMBLE" section should not be allowed unless it is possible to identify the poster by name.

The whole of our fair and democratic society relies on one key law - that a person is presumed innocent untill proven guilty.

Being able to name a business while hidding behind a false name combined with the data protection laws make this method of grumbling entirely unfair and illegal.

Although it is ironic that I put in place some insurance protection for the club to defend actions against it (when I was Chairman) - I have now investigated the possibility of taking action to recover damages - and to my surprise it is both possible and there is precedent to support it.

However - just because one member still bares a grudge becasue 7 years ago we told him his car was in very poor and dangerous condition, another claims to have never been given a refund (although no one knows who he is or whether he even bought anything) and anothers father found that as a result of our diligence and skill - we didn't tell him what he wanted to hear about his car needing attention when he didn't want to pay for it (and preferred to go somewhere that were not thorough enough or honest enough to find the same problems) - there is also a danger for the Club I still hold dear to my heart and the wrath of the members for attacking it when I and Hartech will have done absolutely nothing wrong.

If someone has a genuine and honest grumble - by all means post it with sufficient information for the issue to be indentified and offer the right of reply. To do this the CLUB need to simply put at the top of the section - "Contributors to this section - by contributing - give permission to the club to reveal their identity to an injured party so that they may reply and defend their position".

If a contributor is not prepared to do this then something is obviously wrong and the result of their posting must be unfair.

I knew at the outset something was wrong because we don't over charge - don't work without permission and don't keep surcharges back - and have many customers who have been on our Maintenance Plan for 10 years or more and whose cars have cost very little to provide 100% reliability - as good today as they ever were - but I gave the opportunity to the grumblers to reply that was not forthcoming.

There will be some potential customers put off by what they read and that damages my business and personal reputation when the facts presented were innacurate or wrong - clasic libel - and this is absolutely WRONG.

By all means expose those that deserve it and in so doing protect the innocent - but don't be so naive to think that every member is a balanced fair minded individual and please do realise that there are competitors, jealous people and indeed nutters who will enjoy hiding behind the anonimity this section provides to satisfy their need for exposure.

Remember to that I am a member and own a Porsche business - so it is not one sided - I can see both sides - but this is just clearly wrong and if something is not done to protect innocent businesses through the right of identification and reply - I will re-consider putting in motion litigation to force the issue.

Barry Hart (Baz)

Hi Barry,

You are correct that liable and slanderous comments made at a company are wrong. I do however see the need to bring any issues with a company you have been mistreated by out into the open to help resolve them.

This might not apply to you, because any negative press is outweighed by the positive press you receive, both here and on other forums. If the worst was to happen and someone in your employment had made a mistake without your knowledge, would you prefer to know or not? All complaints must be made to the company before it is brought to the tinterweb. This will give them the chance to rectify any problems. Not looking at any company in particular, there are garages and service providers who do not care about customer service. Clearly this is the case with national chain companies who view customers as accounts. Customer service is the personal touch added to the actual service provided.

If someone has a complaint and does not bring it to you first, but discloses it here, then their comments will be treated the way the original posts were treated as unfounded and non substantiated. It might be hard for you, as the recipient, to see that these comments do not actually harm your reputation. Your dignified response and the fact that you gave them the chance to investigate their claims make the ordinary forum user see that you would be a garage and service provider that you could deal with.

Lee Reader.

Baz as a moderator here along with others then you have the right the same as others to contact one of us & get a thread reviewed & if necessary edited or removed. I've done that in the past for both members & suppliers where we have had disputes. We don't as Brett said the other week police with the big stick that some other forums do. Because of this we've never needed to police it any more strongly.

Hi

Umm, you may have a problem on releasing someones identity...The Data Protection act forbids it I think without the permission of the owner (of the identity)

I am not a lawyer, so you would have to check that....

All the best Brett

You're suggestion seems sensible I will update the rules.

May be worth bringing up at the forth coming AGM, someone may have a compromise idea

If litigation ensues, then the legal obligation to reveal an individual's identity (with the necessary orders) supercedes the Data Protection Act.

I'm no lawyer either, and comments made are personal and do not reflect the views of TIPEC.

So Graham - if anyone accuses unfairly it is up to the innocent to start litigation before they can have the right of reply - that's not right - nor could many afford it or have the time or inclination.

My proposition is simple, totally fair and does not prevent grumbling when honest and justified - but equally allows imediate responses from the accused to something someone else started.

Baz

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Hi All

The problem with the solution (Full name for Grumble section) that was suggested by Baz is that practically it would be hard to implement, either Full names would have to be used for ALL sections or there would have to be a seperate login for the Grumble section which would complicate things....

As a matter of interest, the fact I included my business email address in my signature (see signature below) was the primary reason why I was kicked out as PCGB Moderator, they said "it was advertising"even though it had been there for years and I had helped a LOT of people with computer problems for free.... (I do the same here)

Personally I am quite happy for people to know my name and address, but anonymity on Forums is a historical fact and I suspect a lot of people would not post is they HAD to give full name/address etc....

And as the purpose of a Forum is to get as many like minded people to post as possible, I think it would defeat that object....

All the best Brett

It's easy - readers just remain sceptical about annonomous postings until the moderator removes it or someone challenges them to identify themselves - and it is removed if they don't - otherwise completely fictitious postings could be placed by individuals or competitors to falsley discredit legitimate buisinesses with impunity. Knowing that the club would name them if anyone complained to enable the truth to come out - would prevent unfairness but not stop honest comment.

If a member has a legitimat grumble about a business then why would you want to dilute the impact of what they have to say by remaining un-named when providing their details makes readers take more note - as their imformation is more likely to be true and worth reading.

There will be plenty of postings where members feel agrieved but the business equally feels the same and the public can make up their own mind - but trying to defend the kind of untrue postings seen recently - just to get the numbers posting - up - is indefensable.

In my view trying to discredit people with lies that cannot be defended is one of the worst traits of human behaviour usually adopted by manipulative dictators, ladder climbers and people with a chip on their shoulder - but members with legitimate points need not feel put off at all and adding their name simply adds weight to their point of view.

Thanks Sean for changing the rules - action taken quite rightly - well done and for the others who supported my business ethics and saw how reasonable my initial approach was and now see the logic and fairness of this simple solution - that should only upset people with hidden agendas - that should be exposed for what they are up to anyway.


Baz - Praising this time!!!!!!!

That should work. Anyone posts a grumble has to put there name in the post or have it deleted. Simple.

I didn't say I disagreed with your propostion - far from it. I too disagree that people can hide behind anonymity, yet receive the protection of the law under the guise of the D.P. Act.
However, it is the case with ALL UK law, the innocent (or yet to be proven guilty) have to commence litigation. Even in some of the most heanous of crimes. For example in a rape case, the accusor remains anonymous, yet can still name their supposed attacker.

I'm still +1 to you Baz.

Baz, really we do not get many accusations on here, we are as you know , an enthusiasts club, not an organization discussing the size of the furry dice for our bogsters, we know of your company and its unrivalled reputation in the Porsche world. I do not believe that these posts which you cannot defend against for various reasons, are harming, or will harm your fine business, there are other posts which occasionally bring to our notice issues from suppliers/repairers which are of value to our membership, therefore why should we change. Now, CAN WE MOVE ON.