Porsche Enthusiasts Club Forum

Thanks for that Brett, it is interesting that the biggest problem Lynn and I had with running the club was with the one section who wanted the club to publish any letter sent in from any member in full (which is obviously unprofessional - allows all sorts of unfair situations and potential litigation), wanted to approve limited suppliers (allowing potential for favours and corruption) and when Porsche GB and/or PCGB were threatening the club because they were using their logos and wording to pass off our club as associated with them - ignored my request to desist and continued to display the word Porsche and club badge at shows etc threatening our future.

Having been a main board director of a number of private and public businesses - I found that specialist clubs are a bit like a microcosm of (at the complete other end of the scale) big businesses, governments (or more topically middle east Countries) in which there is a continual need to vet peoples intentions, limit power and search out potential corruption. When you are working hard to earn a living and in your spare time run a club - there is precious little time left to fight against others within who at that moment have time to lobby and voice opposition. If you have several businesses you will know that this is also typical in business where the executive doing all the hard work hasn't got time to fight a good rearguard action against the competitive executive who does sweet you know what except spend all his time cosying up to the influential board and key managers - eventually sticking the knife in - getting the job and ruining the company.

So we learned that you cannot win trying to fight pressure groups for ever and perhaps the old adage “that it is good to keep your friends close and better to keep your enemies even closer” - would have been a better solution rather than trying to fight them in the interests of the club and its members - as we eventually failed through inexperience at handling such issues (although in all fairness to those that took over - the club survived and prospered).

I am disappointed that this section of the forum in this club still allows such criticism without the ability to identify the provider by name. What would be fair is for there to be another section for Porsche specialists entitled “BE WARNED” in which businesses could anonymously post a customer’s name and car registration and explain what the problem was with them - to pre-warn other businesses. I wonder how our members would feel about that? I bet they would be up in arms – but business owners are no different to members of the public and both have in each group, honest and corrupt people, sensible people and idiots, genuine people and some manipulating the system to benefit themselves or a friends business or seek an advantage by taking sides – this is true of everything in life. I am not in any way suggesting at all that this is what has happened in this posting because I have not yet had a chance to investigate – although – even without doing so – I find from the postings themselves some odd logic emerging.

For example it was stated that we charged £1500 for a service – not true the service price will be as quoted and there will be extras (don’t yet know what). Our Gold major 24K service includes a report detailing checks on 270 individual issues/items including download of fault memory, tyre measurements in three places each, cylinder compressions, anti freeze quality and safe temperature, Disc sizes, pad condition, calliper plate condition, 4 wheel laser wheel alignment check, before and after road tests and details from individual brake pipes checked to alternator output etc etc. etc.

The car is cleaned and vac’d as well (complimentary – no charge included) and then the write an individual specific report detailing our findings.

Now using some basic common sense and simple maths – from around £500 (average of all models) deduct the cost of oil, plugs, filters (including pollen filters) etc and divide the result by a typical and fair Independent hourly rate and you will see that there will only be a few hours to do all the work. Take from that the time for putting it on and off two ramps - two road tests, 4 wheel laser alignment check, cylinder compression test, strip down and measure discs, pads, check steering, download fault memory, change oil and filter and see how long is left for over 200 further checks and it works out at something like 1 minute/check – to find it, check it and record the result. So when we say we subsidise this service – you would be an idiot not to realise that (like everything else we do) it is absolutely true. We do it to set out a new customer with a proper analysis and record of their car’s condition enabling us to advise and discuss the priorities and then we write a free report on our findings.

All this is not enough for some people who (it seems) expect us to also investigate faults free of charge. It was reported to us that a customer (who took his car to a local competitor) recently found the engine of a car taken in just for a service - half stripped down (without any contact with him or approval) – because it had a fault – giving the unhappy customer no say in what they did or the charges they accumulated – would you prefer that? We report the faults – we do not investigate them further in that service price. A heater control unit fault could have lots of causes and take hours to identify – why did you expect that for free?
To complain that we report what someone’s mother could have found out is clearly just silly and nasty – what are we supposed to do? Are we to guess which faults the owner (or their mother) might already know about so ignore those and not report them – hoping we only report the ones that they don’t know about – how stupid and what utter nonsense – we report ALL the faults and it is up to the owner to discuss what they want us to do about them – what is wrong with that?. If we found low compression – should I write a 20 page report on all the possible causes or strip the engine down to find out only to find the owner wasn’t interested anyway – was selling the car and wouldn’t pay?

Then apparently we talk too much – well hallelujah for that - how awful – a garage that doesn’t hide behind an automatic phone system and takes time to talk to you about your car! Without investigating I already know what I am dealing with so – thanks for walking – the way we work does not suit you and so we can never win. Our business style suits sensible rational and fair minded people who want to pay a reasonable price for exceptional care and quality to someone they can trust and discuss things with, that backs up their work by guarantees and shares the responsibility for the quality of work through a Maintenance Plan in which they carry out repairs free of labour charge (for which the above service is also the acceptance route). I know of no other Independent with the same level of equipment, range of services or reputation – so for people that our style suits we offer unbeatable value for money but it is absolutely true that there are some whom it does not suit (and the we do not get on with) and it’s a free Country and we prefer them to go elsewhere where they can enjoy a productive relationship with a different style of business and people that suits them.
I also noticed that the person without a refund - I think joined on the day of the complaint – so what happened – did you just forget about the refund or chase it up – were you interested to find out if a problem outside of our control occurred – did you get your refund or did you just want to join in criticising us despite receiving your new wishbones or do you have an ulterior motive?

From where I am I can see through many of the postings I read and even work out who is trying to help a competitor or just air a grievance that may actually be fully or partly their fault anyway. A good clue to the truth is that there seem to be two opposing views on our business – either we are great or not fit to burn – nothing in between – that to me says everything!

I often talk to other Independents about the difficulty with problem customers who try to use club or Internet influence to gain an unfair advantage of some kind – and they just accept it and pay up to keep them quiet. For those unused to us can I make it clear that we are not like that. We refuse to be manipulated so that ultimately our genuine customers (whose loyalty we appreciate) pay to cover the cost of those others unfairly – instead we defend our right to reply and protect our business and our customers where appropriate – but it is difficult and unfair when they can name us but we cannot identify them.

I support fair criticism – identification of the people and issues and the right of reply.

Barry Hart (AKA Baz)

Just to let you know that I have had no further contact from anyone relating to the complaints listed - so unfortunately am still unable to throw any light on the issues raised.

It is interesting that the World News this very weekend reported that various Governments are waking up to the potential problems the Internet is creating as a result of various types of published material being from sources that cannot be identified and I confidently expect there to be some legislation eventually to protect the innocent.

This is similar to the problems I tried to handle when some members wanted the club magazine to publish any letter sent in whatever it contained - all those years ago. Although then you could probably identify the writer - no one could tell if the points printed would be fair and reasonable or malicious and vindictive - and there is therefore potential for unfair reporting and the resulting implications for corruption.

It is really unfortunate that the vast majority of our members are decent people who's very magnanimous and generous view of the World and people prevents them from seeing through the consequences of such potential for the great minority of trouble makers that inevitably exist - so much so that they may well not understand what the dangers are and support what they see as freedom of speech issues and protecting members from bad buisnesses.

But people are not born with a stamp on their heads saying HONEST AND GENUINE PRIVATE CAR OWNER or CORRUPT BUSINESSMAN - we are all the same and if the opportunity for corruption exists human nature tends to encourage people to exploit it (hence MP's expenses etc) - but this applies just as much to individuals as businesses and therefore works both ways - whereas this section is set up to be one sided at the outset.

It is therefore important for organisations that represent people and communicate to them to realise the responsibility they manage and not to be naive.

I agree totally to praise where praise is earned (even though this in itself could be responsible for some low level promotion) but I do feel that "grumbling" is a step too far and this is why no other similar forum allows a name or shame posting as a matter of policy - which I think is the best position.

As we have records of all customer orders, worksheets, invoices and engineers reports (for 15 years) I am personally happy to respond to any genuine customer complaint (it is impossible to please everyone all the time and despite every effort mistakes or misunderstandings can sometimes be made) but it is unfair if we cannot identify the complainant as it leaves us with a bad mark against our reputation over an issue to which we cannot respond - to at least allow members to decide on the merits of each sides position.

Baz

Hi Baz

I dislike the no "Naming and Shaming" policies on certain forums (PH as an example)

The reason is that yes you can say....what great service you got at so and so but you cannot say what awful service you got....

I think its unfortunate that the sites themselves are so frightened of "possible" legal action (which never actually happens) that basically they bottle out...

If as an example i came on here and said so and so company ripped me off and gave me awful service, then its MY responsibility and before I posted I would have considered any legal action (libel and slander) that could be taken against me.... not forgetting that you cannot be found guilty in a court of libel or slander if the allegation is true, so as long as you have the proof you have nothing to worry about...

As far as traders like yourself are concerned, you have such a good reputation generally (hundreds of posts in various forums) that although you will occasionally get the odd one against you, I think most fair minded people will see that post is untrue...

To be honest the fact you actually post as the boss of the company impresses people (and me) as its a rarity as a lot of company owners hide behind the company and are not prepared to put their head over the parapet...

So please carry on posting and ignore the odd one or two adverse postings....


All the best Brett

Thanks for that Brett - Sorry but I dissagree and I think you have missed the salient point - because it is impossible to identify the origin because the data protection act prevents you from disclosing information held on file to anyone else without their permission 9which they would be unlikely to give).

I would agree if the rules stated that all people posting must identify themselves by name (and where appropriate provide details like dates and registration numbers etc so a fair response can be provided).

As you rightly say - if they are telling the truth they should stand the consequences - however - if you have ever dealt with the public - you will know that they often don't listen properly - don't understand technically and believe too much of what other friends etc tell them as facts when their friends are not specialists - so often get the wrong impression.

The law states that statements must be true and positions and actions must be reasonable but who is to judge that - not always the member of the public who didn't get their own way - as they planned.

Take the comments about us - that are clearly untrue or missrepresented - since we are accused of not sending back a surcharge but no way of identifying it, accused of charging too much for a fault anyones mother would knbow about, complained about for doing something for nothing etc. Surely you can see through those positions!

Why do you think all your members tell the truth always but all the dealers don't?

I do appreciate your kind words about us and this is not personal - but you need to experience the consuquences to feel the pain it imparts.

Don't worry I will continue to contribute where I feel my knowlege is useful or others is mistaken or misleading - I will apologise if we ever make a mistake that we should have or could have avoided - but I will also take on anyone trying to discredit us unfairly - but it still seems wrong that they can remain anonomous while my business can be named.

Baz

Hi BAZ

Luckily I got out of the Motor trade in 2000... having owned Garages I know how unfair customers can be sometimes...the change the anti-freeze one week and its automatically your fault when a rear wheel bearing goes the next week syndrome...lol

I would rather see a site like Tipec which accepts all postings than PH to be honest... I think PH as an example has got too big for its boots, they seem to have forgotten that without ordinary posters there would be no site at all...

Tipec even allows me to post which is a rarity lol Maybe because I, like you try to help and with my experience as an ex PCGB Moderator and ex race mechanic, I can give independent advice to like minded owners.

I also moderate on the Wizards of Nos Forum and like here the Moderation is very light, as long as posters keep the language down and dont get silly then almost anything goes.... which is the way that Tipec seems to moderate here...

Maybe the answer is to use the more model specific sites like here rather than the "business orientated" sites like PH... or the "political" model sites like the PCGB...

All the best Brett

Barry

To help you shed more light on the comments made by Metallic Bronze his name is Patrick Cavanagh. Not an issue with data protection the clue was in his email address.

We have noted that he has not replied, in the spirit of fair play we will delete his post if one is not forthcoming.

Praise and Grumble will continue to be a feature of this forum, it has helped resolve disputes and given some good advice. TIPEC acknowledges that there are usually two sides to every story and will moderate and warn posters about content.

I am pleased you have made it over to the forum and very much hope you will continue to be involved and share your vast experience with the gang.

Sean

Thanks Paul, that information has been most illuminating – because it has enabled me to find all the information from our records – which totally vindicate everything I have been posting and totally discredits others. From my records - there is no doubt whatsoever that this posting is an inaccurate and malicious attempt to discredit Hartech from events over 6 years ago. I don't yet know why the owner was so disgruntled but I now am and as a result I am considering contact with our insurers to investigate legal action for damages under our policy with them.
This blows apart arguments about the fairness of anonymous postings because there is still an issue with data protection that excludes us from providing that information to this forum without the owner’s permission to corroborate my position.

However – if we got that permission – it could reveal some facts that might be remarkably similar to the “entirely fictitious” list of faults taken from a 7 page report - that follows.

Booked in November 2004 1979 911 SC speedometer reading 226794km (therefore probably LHD)

Invoice charges – Category “C” service” £390.00

Repair poor running (which we never would do without permission or being asked to) – Found tuning kept changing by itself. Investigate to find warm up regulator, vacuum operated warm up fuel pressure regulator & thermo valve all inoperative. Investigate to find no live feeds to each component & a fault which had melted the fuel pump relay socket. Repair fuel pump socket & re-wire rear loom to bye-pass damaged section. Then found warm up air regulator and thermo valve seized through lack of use – remove, ultra sonically clean & re-fit. Re-set tuning (now possible), test & re-check to find okay.

Took 14 hours – charge £400.00 – Total cost £790.00 + Vat (not £1500 as stated).

Now look at the general condition of the faults of this fictitious car to see why we might not consider such a car worthwhile wasting time investigating the exact cause of the heating system fault (and that in this fictitious comparison we actually did report three specific faults anyway).

Our Engineers reports are far more detailed today) but if these faults were indeed part of a report of the car in question, with faults to brakes undersized and seized, fluid leaks from the brake master cylinder, corroded torsion bar mounts - heater boxes and chassis and we had already reported the two faults with the heater system and the third one to the heater boxes – do you really think it is reasonable to expect us to fully investigate the cause of the heater fault within the already subsidised service – when so much else is more important for the safety of the owner and the public?

Would you think that a business capable and thorough enough to meticulously check and find all those faults listed in the report (as well as servicing the car, oil, plugs etc etc included for such a price) didn’t have a clue about air cooled 911’s? Furthermore anyone who has ever tried to repair such wiring faults will know that – far from being handy with the calculator we really did not charge for the full time taken.

Customers who buy such cars in really poor condition and cannot afford to fix them often do react badly to our comprehensive fault finding – as if is our fault their car was a bad buy that will cost a small fortune to put right – hence their irritation at the time we spend talking to help them understand the priorities – of which – with the fictitious car mentioned above – the heater would not be included!

This whole issue graphically confirms exactly why it is totally unfair and unreasonable (and potentially libellous) to state publically facts and figures that are untrue, misleading and damage a legitimate businesses reputation – basically (I presume) in punishment for informing the owner what a poor car they have bought.

I only found out about this posting because an employee found it on the Internet – so unless I scrutinise every possible forum every day – I could miss a similar unfair and damaging posting – that harms my business and this is why moderators and forum rules should not be so naive to blindly publish anything that gets sent in. However – as I have managed to reply to this one - I am not asking for any postings to be removed as I think it supports my argument more if it remains.

NOW MAKE YOUR OWN MINDS UP BY READING WHAT FOLLOWS!

Baz

FICTITIOUS REPORT Highlighting faults N.b. these engineers reports cover over 200 checks (now including steering geometry etc) but for ease of reading I have only listed below the faults that were present in this fictitious report – so if a sub-heading has nothing listed below it - there would normally be several checks covered but reported as OK. Unfortunately Our layout does not re-print nicely on the club forum – so I have condensed it to save space.
Car Condition Report As At December 2004 N.B. ONLY FAULTS FOUND LISTED HERE

Registration Number REMOVED DATA PROTECTION
Make Porsche
Model 911 SC
Chassis Number REMOVED DATA PROTECTION
Production Year 1979
Odometer Reading 226794 Km
Colour Copper Brown
Interior Brown/Tan Seats
Brown Carpets
Brown/Black Dashboard


LIGHTS
Dashboard Lights Checked – Various Inoperative

GENERAL ELECTRICS

Heater Checked – Faulty
Gearbox Mechanism Faulty
Front Blower Inoperative

Windscreen Washers Checked – Off Side Inoperative

GAUGES

TYRES & WHEELS

ENGINE

Oil Pressure Checked – Low
Oil Leaks Checked – Various Leaks
Excessive Leaks From :-
Oil Tank To Cooler Hose Front Crank Shaft Seal
Rear Crank Shaft Seal
Oil Strainer Gasket
Moderate Leaks From:
Lower Rocker Covers
Cam Shaft Carriers To Cylinder

Heads Engine Oil Cooler Seals
Minor Leaks From:
Timing Chain Housing Gaskets
Timing Chain Cover Gaskets
Number 6 Barrel Base
Oil Cooler Checked – Leaking From Seals As Far As Can See (Limited Access)
Hoses/Pipes Checked – Various Getting Tired

WHEEL BEARINGS

BRAKES

Off Side Front Disc Checked – Poor (Worn) 0.9 undersize
Near Side Front Disc Checked – Poor (Worn) 0.9 undersize
Off Side Rear Disc Checked – Poor (Corroded Inner Faces) 0.2 mm oversize
Near Side Rear Disc Checked – Poor (Corroded Inner Faces) 0.5 mm oversize
Off Side Handbrake Checked – Tired
Near Side Handbrake Checked – Tired

The rear brakes are seized and we recommend you replace the callipers. The discs are also poor and would benefit from replacement (the pads will also need renewing at the same time). The handbrake also needs an overhaul.

There is a fluid leak from the master cylinder area which requires further investigation.

TRANSMISSION

Gearbox Oil Leaks Checked – Minor Weep From Selector Plate gasket
Gearbox Oil Condition Checked – Poor
Off Side Transmission Joints Bellows Checked – Starting To Perish
Near Side Transmission Joints Bellows Checked – Starting To Perish & Leaking Grease
Slightly

STEERING

SUSPENSION

Front Suspension Checked – Minor Wear In Dampers But Not Of Concern At This Stage
Rear Suspension Checked – Poor (Torsion Bar Mounts Corroded Through)

EXHAUST SYSTEM

Off Side Heat Exchanger Checked – Corroded & Leaking
Near Side Heat Exchanger Checked – Corroded & Leaking

OTHER

The fuel flexible hose to tank has a corroded steel end.

Various sections of the chassis are corroded and need attention – both inner front wings, off side rear inner wing, & near side sill area.

The bonnet & tail struts are tired.

There is no compressor for the space saver spare wheel.

This report is not exhaustive and is intended to be a guide for prioritising future work. It is based on various measurements and inspections with the naked eye. It must be understood that cars of this age can develop unexpected faults even to components deemed as okay in this report.

Any work quoted for is at current prices and is valid for 28 days providing that the our parts suppliers do not increase their prices. The labour portion of these quotes assumes that we do not experience unforeseen time consuming problems such as snapped/stripped bolts, etc.

Just wondering Sean how you managed to join in 1970?

Baz

Hey Roy, you opened a bit of a thread here mate!

Hiya Brett, I drove passed your PC shop a couple of days ago (maybe last week - time is flying by) and I quickly notice your 968 in my peripheral - nice!

Hello Baz, well... my little 944 has a few 'Hartech' stickers under the bonnet - from years ago when it was obviously living in or near Fred Dibnah's town of Bolton.

Same old same old in life - one can never please everyone.

Good writings guys.

I might copy 'n' paste and create an e-book for ebay

Hi Alfie

Next time you are near the shop, pop in for a cuppa as I am always there and any Porsche owner is welcome

Its a 928 by the way not a 968 lol

All the best Brett

Interesting thread. Glad to have you on the board Baz with your experience. Perhaps I should have said "You get what you pay for." Rather than "You pay for the name." I certainly don't get an exhaustive report on the state of my car like that. But it takes time to produce & costs money. I gave up on Piston heads as there are too many know it alls on there who don't. I'm fortunate to have a good local mechanic who really knows what hes doing. I couldn't afford to run my '44 at specialist prices. Hartech or anybody else. Though OPC make your prices seem very reasonable. I hope you will stick around and contribute from time to time & not be put off by the sour grapes. This post is as said a very good advert for Hartech.

When the developers built the site that's how they set me up.

Pity this isn't Facebook......
I'd post " Like" to Bazhart's postings.

A very well put and dignified response. Put across very well indeed. It's a shame the original posters cannot (will not?) respond.

Thanks for that Graham

Baz

i know this is a very old topic, but cant the site rules/forum rules be changed to say that if you post on the forum you lose the rights under the data protection act?. After all every time i enter into a contract with a financial institution i agree to waive my rights or not deal with them??

Just a thaught

Geoff