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 Post subject: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:54 pm 
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Hi everyone!

So, have put on new belts and pump recently. Have got the Arnworrx tool kit and have got the timing belt tensioned correctly as per the spec of the tool. For the balance belt I was in the middle range of the spec last week and it slipped a tooth so tightened it up so it was tighter and just out of spec on the tool, which wanted it to be looser.

After a good drive today it skipped again......strange, because I also gave it the big beans only yesterday and it performed well and did not skip a tooth!

So, question really is, is it just a question of tightening it up more. I am able on a cold engine twist the belt 180 degrees by hand but guess that depends on how strong one is compared to the next man/woman.....hence the use of my paper weight...er..I mean expensive tool...

Can it be anything else that is making it skip a couple of teeth other than tightening the balance belt? I mean it is a double toothed belt?

Thanks in advance,

M

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:35 pm 
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Idler pullet set correctly? I use one of these to ckeck tension :- https://www.gatestechzone.com/en/tools/ ... ion-gauges or this :- http://www.arnnworx.com/catalog/index.p ... 0LExDVryUk but the Bruce Arn tool is bulky and difficult to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:39 pm 
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Yes, idler set spot on. Has to be just too loose on the BB.......strangley this was the case when I bought it 2.5 years ago when the belts were changed by my Porsche specialist, I tightened it up a hair then and it has been good for the two years...but this was before I bought my magic tool...............

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:58 pm 
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mikseymono wrote:
Yes, idler set spot on. Has to be just too loose on the BB.......strangley this was the case when I bought it 2.5 years ago when the belts were changed by my Porsche specialist, I tightened it up a hair then and it has been good for the two years...but this was before I bought my magic tool...............


Check that the tensioner is being tightened in the correct direction, one way is incorrect - refer to the Porsche Workshop Manual for the correct technique. IIRC the tensioning roller should be turned clockwise to tighten the belt.

The idler should be gapped with a feeler gauge at 0.5mm to the belt running on the lower balance shaft and 0 - 1mm against the upper belt run.

I fitted new belts last year and used the twist method - it felt pretty slack to me (compared to the other belts in the car) but has been fine and hasn't skipped or slipped.

I also got the Gates kricket tool but was hard to get consistent readings but showed that both my timing belt and balance belt were pretty close to specification.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:00 pm 
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Wh1t3Kn1ght wrote:
mikseymono wrote:
Yes, idler set spot on. Has to be just too loose on the BB.......strangley this was the case when I bought it 2.5 years ago when the belts were changed by my Porsche specialist, I tightened it up a hair then and it has been good for the two years...but this was before I bought my magic tool...............


Check that the tensioner is being tightened in the correct direction, one way is incorrect - refer to the Porsche Workshop Manual for the correct technique. IIRC the tensioning roller should be turned clockwise to tighten the belt.

The idler should be gapped with a feeler gauge at 0.5mm to the belt running on the lower balance shaft and 0 - 1mm against the upper belt run.

I fitted new belts last year and used the twist method - it felt pretty slack to me (compared to the other belts in the car) but has been fine and hasn't skipped or slipped.

I also got the Gates kricket tool but was hard to get consistent readings but showed that both my timing belt and balance belt were pretty close to specification.



How far did you twist the BB in degrees please?

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:59 am 
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mikseymono wrote:


How far did you twist the BB in degrees please?


With my thumb and index finger I adjusted the tensioner so I could just about twist the belt 180 degrees on the longest run (with the idle pulley removed)


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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:08 am 
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OK..so been at it on my Balance belt this morning. Engine cold and put tool on to use it as a guide to show the increments when tightening it up. Tightened up belt to the point where I could turn the balance belt by finger and thumb through around 135 degrees at its longest run, just below the water pump pulley with the idler removed.

Of course this is very subjective depending on how big your hands are and how strong you are........

Tensioner is set correctly and tensioned clockwise. Tool is showing it is too tight but the margins are really small here. It is the difference of turning the tensioning nut clockwise around 10 degrees to go from in spec to outside it's parameters.

I have covered 700 miles since the new belts were put on. I know the timing belt stretches a bit and you need to retention after say 1000 miles...on my wizy tool there are two marks for the timing belt, one for a new timing belt and one for a used one. However, for the balance belt there is only one mark for new and old. Surely the balance belt will stretch a bit?

Anyhow's, I'll go for a mini spin this afternoon and see how it goes.

Cheers,

M

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:19 pm 
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Just been for a good spin. Once nicely warmed up I took her up to the red line in a few gears. No slipping at all.
Belt noise is slightly different than before but not too bad. No way near as whiny as stuff I have seen on the web and they all whine to some degree.
So, that sould be that.....fingers crossed.

​​​​​​​M

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:31 pm 
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Excellent :D

Sounds like a result - so what is the consensus on the Arnnworx tool then??? I almost purchased one of those but couldn't justify the cost in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:14 am 
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Thanks.

For the complete package you get the flywheel lock, thin spanner, pin wrench and the tension tool. However, if you are like me, before I did my belts in the 2 years previous when I just bought the car I was able to, from this and various other forums as well as Clarks and the web, learn quite alot about my car. Everything was quite 'Germanic' in terms of quite simple to work out and to work on. The only struggle I have had is with this damn tool. Maybe it is me, or issues with the auto tensioner. If you google the tool and the auto tensioner quite a few people have had similar issues. The main problem for me was getting the slack up to the top of the belt for the timing belt which is so subjective. You only have to move the tensioners 15 degrees either way and the needle almost moves a complete revolution.

I would say that most owners of 924s/944 are enthusiasts, like me, on a limited budget for a fun classic car, and like doing the work themselves rather than paying for a garage. The engine I have found is relatively simple to work on with good access. I have learn't alot in my journey.

In terms of the tool, well, what can I say. Breaking it down, you definitely need the flywheel lock, thin spanner is a bonus but you probably have a tool that could do that, the pin wrench is good, but for both working on top of the car the lengths are too short. I had to add some bent tubing for better control and leverage. However, you do get a very smart flight case to put everything in. As a bonus for me I hadn't factored in the extra € in customs duty.........

TBH I was hoping it would work like say a torque wrench. Just set the numbers and away you go. The tool promises great things but for me just didn't work out. I would say most people on here will just use their experience or know a mate who does. For me living out here where I do I just thought I would need this for belt and braces seeing as no one or garage remotely near me has one or understands it.

The cost is also a bit subjective. You would use the tension kit for the new belts and then again to retention in around 1000 miles and then repeat every 4 years. You may even help out a mate or forum member...if your really savvy you could rent it out! So all in not so bad.....however, if it doesn't give you the consistent results you expect and you revert back to the experience and feel methods...I think you have your answer.

Good luck!

M

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:54 am 
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mikseymono wrote:
Just been for a good spin. Once nicely warmed up I took her up to the red line in a few gears. No slipping at all.
Belt noise is slightly different than before but not too bad. No way near as whiny as stuff I have seen on the web and they all whine to some degree.
So, that should be that.....fingers crossed.

​​​​​​​M

I had an Arnworx kit & did various belts including other peoples. General experience get the flywheel locking tool & a Gates Krikit. In the end after trying the Arnworx kit & finding it too clever for its own good & a PITA to use, especially on the later cars with auto adjusters as space is tight, I gave up.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:22 pm 
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You can get a belt service tool kit from partworks.de - got mine from there, includes the flywheel lock, tensioner / balance shaft spanner and an offset spanner for tightening the lock nuts

https://partworks.de/en-en-en-en-partworks-de-porsche-944-15-special-tools-tool-set-for-porsche-924s-944-timing-belt-change-3-piece.html

That way no expensive import duty to pay :D


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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Wh1t3Kn1ght wrote:
You can get a belt service tool kit from partworks.de - got mine from there, includes the flywheel lock, tensioner / balance shaft spanner and an offset spanner for tightening the lock nuts

https://partworks.de/en-en-en-en-partworks-de-porsche-944-15-special-tools-tool-set-for-porsche-924s-944-timing-belt-change-3-piece.html

That way no expensive import duty to pay :D

That makes more sense. Add the Krikit which was around £30 landed when I bought mine & you're good to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:10 pm 
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yeah...looks like a good deal all in....with the benefit of hindsight.....

I couldn't help myself and loosened it up a wee bit this morning.....still outside the tighter side for the Arnnworx tool...started it up and harmonics of belt was definately different. Will take it for a spin later...once it stops raining....

M

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 Post subject: Re: Balance belt skipping a tooth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:43 pm 
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mikseymono wrote:
yeah...looks like a good deal all in....with the benefit of hindsight.....

I couldn't help myself and loosened it up a wee bit this morning.....still outside the tighter side for the Arnnworx tool...started it up and harmonics of belt was definately different. Will take it for a spin later...once it stops raining....

M


Stop it :lol:

Stop playing with it :roll:

I'm sure it was fine - hopefully it is still not skipping.

Annoyingly I will be checking mine over the winter as even though I did a complete front end reseal - I've got an oil drip coming down the front near the crankshaft, but without removing the covers it is hard to tell exactly where it is from. I'm hoping it is the oil pan gasket rather than the seals I've already replaced, god forbid if it is leaking from the oil pump....


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