Porsche Enthusiasts Club Forum

OK, age old question but would be interested to get your views; I have an initial budget for this purchase, as each month passes this seems to afford me a diminishing purchase at current prices I will of course have budget for proper ongoing maintenance and 'unforseen' works that will crop up with a 30 year old car but i have a budget for initial purchase and any immediate remedial works..
Do I, look to spend every penny of initial budget on best car I can and after appropriate inspection/due diligence hope that nothing arises for a few months, or, go for a sound car with good provenance where there are some known remedial jobs to be done.
As an example and Im just using this as an example e.g. if i had c£10k budget theres a 944 Lux 2.5 and a S2 for sale on this forum for 5.5k and 4.5k respectively both requiring different amounts of work. Or theres something like this http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C642431 that claims to need nothing and be immaculate at £10k (anyone know this car?)

Which way would you guys go? I have gone both routes myself in the past but for differing reasons i.e. track project or daily driver... I do know that with the best of intentions I will get little time to do anything on it myself so it will generally be paying a known specialist.
Reliability is key for me, it doesnt have to be show queen but I do need the confidence in its reliability to jump in and do the 100mile round trip to the office occasionally or pack up the boot and head to Le Mans (anyone up for the trip this year?).. Hence my query, if I buy base and have the work done myself then I know its sorted, if i get the best it hopefully means someone else has taken care and it 'shouldnt' need big stuff...
Before anyone says it, yes i know we cant predict unless maybe i buy a new honda or something but I have the family wagon and shopping car so thats sorted.. this is purely for fun but reliability and fun go hand in hand to me.....

Thanks in advance, Im prepared for the onslaught of "use your common sense", "learn to use a spanner", "buy something newer" (on the last one I genuinely cannot find a more modern 2+2 with the driving character, focus and smiles per mile as a 944, or not at sensible hobby money)

I would go for the slightly cheaper option and do stuff myself. That way you know what you're ending up with. Anyone can make a car look desirable and price accordingly.

I sold my 944 today after two years of ownership, I didn't spend initial budget in one go and carried out jobs as and when. Ironically the better I made it the less I was inclined to drive it!!


Can't offer the perfect answer I'm afraid, but wish you good luck with your search

You have answered your own question.

If i was spending £10k on a 944, i would want to see the bills for all the work that has been completed and inspect it properly.

Good luck and feel free to ask questions when you see something that you like the look of.

Purchase strategy ?

You could've bought mine, a small amount of bodywork and it wouldn't be far off exceptional! I think I got a fair price considering the provable spend it has had on it.

I do think there is some well overpriced tat out there so don't rush into anything.

Take a look at both and decide from there, using bills etc. Clearly you have worked on your cars too. Hear that knock etc? Think of what it can entail. I wouldn't despite what some say get hung up on mileage either.

I'd give you a couple of examples but I'd simply send all here to sleep .

In short, in 2009 I bought a 120k 1989 S2 with tons of bills and a recent respray. Over the next few months I did the following:
-New engine (it would be the third engine the car saw in its life after further digging)
-New belts
-New Clutch (old rubber centred item)
-Lower arm (PO only changed one side for a secondhand item) & Castor bushes (they were horribly perished!)
-Heater Matrix
-Almost all of the cooling system (rad, thermostat, pipes etc.)
-2 new tyres (all of them were around 10 years old)

That was spend in 8 months, with me doing everything bar the engine fitment and cambelt change.

If I am honest it still wanted 2 new tyres as the P6000s were old and low on tread as well as dampers all round.

The second one was a 170k Turbo bought from a very well known and revered specialist in the Heart of England. That was tasty including:

-Ex Pro-Max Motorsport Andrew Sweetenaham car. He bought it at 150k and from what I can tell drove it alot!
-Good interior bar the clock not working and a ripped driver's bolster with the Sports seats. The dash looked like new!
-New sills and wings, but the rear arches wanted a bit of attention as they were beginning to rust. I sorted this.
-KWV3 suspension with Hartech arms, Poly ARB bushes, M030 ARBs, 968 castor mounts, subframe mounts etc.
-Big Black Brakes with matching smoothed calipers on the rear
-Rebuilt head and an engine that never dropped below 4Bar Hot at idle.
-AOR LSD gearbox with I suspect a rebuilt LSD ; it could be vicious!
-New PAS lines
-Cup 1s with Michelin PS2s all round

I didn't struggle to sell my first 944 but I did the second with the mileage IMO putting people off. TBH I was almost put off but the specialist did vouch for the car. However, it was a better drive by tenfold, and did around 12,000 miles in my ownership where I:

-Repainted parts of the car when I did the rear arches
-New clock repair kit
-Seals here and there (sunroof)
-2 New tyres after 5,000 miles covered.

It's the one car I am still a little gutted to have sold and in hindsight I sold it for a stupid reason ; to fix my low mileage Stag which needed yet another gearbox very soon in my ownership.

IMHO when it comes to buying a car, in particular when it's a classic Porsche I would always buy the best that you can afford, even if it means you may not have the funds for say a clutch change which btw is expensive on these cars if it fails. Now not everyone will agree with me but you do get what you pay for and as you say you won't have the time to do any work needed yourself and thus will rely on specialists which aren't cheap.
Look for a car that has stacks of bills and history, this doesn't need to be an OEM/ specialist or even a professional garage as many enthusiasts work on their own cars but I would want to see the receipts for work done under their ownership. Regular servicing is very important, belts changed when due, regular oil changes are very important especially if a turbo. Don't worry too much about mileage as these cars engines are bullet proof if serviced correctly. You state that you wish to drive it regularly so go for a car that's been used as a daily driver, if you buy a low mileage car and then start using it daily bills will begin to ramp up very quickly.
These cars are now getting on a bit so corrosion is something that you need to look closely for, sills and lower wings being the main points to double check on, take an endoscope and look inside the sills as they rust from the inside. Fuel and brake lines are another thing to check for, they rust where they pass over the torsion bar and if they haven't been done yet they will be very close to needing work done soon.
Try to take someone with you who knows 944's as there are many things to look for which would take some typing to go through.. alas i need to go now to pick my wife up so feel free to ask any questions and when I get back I'll try to answer them, my experience is mainly with the turbo model though, others can give better responses for the other models.

regards

Pete

I bought my S2 5 years ago when the 993 was in for major surgery. Always liked the look of them and a very practical not something you see every day car. My son had a Lux it was a good one, sills perfect fsh etc.
Mine looked good, drove well and had loads of documentation including cylinder head gasket replacement. Should have looked more closely. The work was done by a non Porsche garage and after a few weeks a knock was heard, on bore inspection there was severe scoring on no4 cylinder and soon bags of smoke from the exhaust. I tried to deal with the seller to no avail and eventually found a good replacement motor. Then a hole appered in the sills etc. etc.
No regets though, cost me more than it should but I love it, it's been fun to work on even more fun to drive (daily). The 993 is fully sorted, blisteringly quick by comparison but not as practical and just a bit precious.
I would go for the best you can find. Depends what you want it for. I like working on cars, mine's done a few track days and some long tours. Not concours by any means but tidy enough and still a head turner. I bought it as a cheap stop gap and it ended up as a not so cheap reliable part of the family.
Lot of pain if you buy a pup.

Thanks to all, yes Pauly "purchase strategy" was just an attention seeking tag line to get some interest/response, what it should've said was help needed in making a slightly more sensible decision
Well I have to admit I'm still undecided, maybe I should just go for the 1997 2.2 VTEC Prelude, seems like a safer bet ok ok I'm joking... I think!

I don't remember it being this complicates when buying porkers in the past. Maybe it's the 4 yr old 28k miles speed yellow boxster going up in flames on side of A21 (yes was me) or IMS/RMS issues on the 996 or maybe I've just got softer with age..

I've done plenty of research, read the guides etc. and have a decent idea what to look for. Thanks also for the offers of assistance, I will I'm sure have some tech and model specific questions as I'm definitely no mechanic.
I will keep you updated and let you know what I buy.
I have long since lost my trusted indy Porsche specialist in SE London so any recommendations for good ones in SE London/Kent would be helpful, even if just for inspections initially.
Thanks again all...

Interestingly the 924s track car I had 20yrs ago was my least considered purchase, one of the cheapest and one of the most fun/reliable cars ever.

If you are going to spend top money, I would be looking for a car that has had a clutch replaced and had a top end rebuild.
Have had both jobs done on both my 2.5 and 3.0 cars in last couple of years and most cars out there will be in need of both if not already done at some point.

Brake lines and fuel lines also not cheap jobs.
Don't dismiss another 924S, although decent ones are now creeping above early 944 values.

I know zilch about 944s!

But I do know a bit about working on cars, and I understand that you don't have time/inclination to do your own work on any 944 you subsequently choose.

So my advice is to compromise by looking for a 944 on sale here from a real enthusiast who has done most of the work on their car either here or in the other club. If you can find evidence that they are a bit anal about keeping their car up to snuff (and keeping records/parts bills is strong evidence), then you will satisfy the "buy best you can afford" advice, and less likely to be hoodwinked by trader who is skilled at presenting car in very favorable light.

Alternatively buy from enthusiast who has had pockets deep enough to have lots of work done by respected specialist(s).

Either way I think you should be aiming to buy privately, rather than through trade, so you can make the most accurate assessment of car's likely condition.

Great balance of opinion and experience here and i welcome it all.
I will more than likely be buying privately (unless a specialist indy has a customer car or similar that ticks the boxes). Also, Ive seen some of the build, maintenance threads on here and some of the DIY work completed by knowledgeable enthusiasts is superb...
I will buy on condition more than miles but admit to being seduced by low miles in my car buying (I slowed down from my prior rate and only 10 cars in last 8 years)
Obviously sound service/maintenance history but also proven remedial, restorative, preventative works a must. Working on the basis of if its not been done already it will need doing unless very lucky.
Looking for later (oval dash) NA 2.5, 2.7 or S2.
My ideal scenario is of course, ticks all the right boxes and has all the right history, receipts evidence but at a few £k under my top end budget. I do think my budget is more than realistic for a good one, im not just looking to buy a cheap Porsche (there isnt any unless maybe your a mechanical guru with lots of time spare)

I will of course provide updates,,

I'd buy an M3 ahead of any 944 except a turbo, and I'm not joking...

+1 on buying from an enthusiast with lots of bills for parts or work done. I bought a 944 lux via ebay for not a lot as a do'er upper, and have since done a great many things to it (and continue to do so). However by far the most difficult job was changing the clutch. That took quite a while and they are expensive. On the 8v the cam belt change is not really very different from most other 4 cylinder overhead cam engines - just done better by porsche. the balance belt is pretty easy to do just look on various websites to make sure they are aligned correctly. The electrics and brakes are pretty much volkswagen/audi so no real surprises there either.

These cars are all old now so rust WILL have got into the sills and maybe the base of the wings, so either assume you will have to do them or find one that has had them properly replaced (not repaired with tin cans and bathroom sealant)

I bought an S2 last year to get really good, managed to find one with a recent clutch. I looked at a few with original sills but they were all on the way out when you look down inside the door vent. Dealers charge top money and as other have said can make a heap look really good in the showroom.

Don't worry too much about mileage - the gearboxes suffer and get noisy after 120K, but the engines are very good. wheel bearings are cheap. Looked after properly, even with a fair amount of wear and tear they seems very reliable to me. my 8v is just about to go over 200K and starts/goes perfectly. Work on the premise that the older and more miles any car has done the more bits you will need to slowly replace - but watch out for the clutch!

Being an M3 owner now I would recheck the values.

Yes, there are loads out there for round £6-9k, but IME there is a reason why they are that cheap ;they are neglected and it shows. I saw 4 M3s and was ready to throw in the towel before I bought my current car.

They are also far from a cheap car to own and IMO probably more expensive to run than a 944 Turbo. To put things into perspective:

Brakes = £500 an axle by the time you account for discs/pads and sensors (discs alone are £200 each, and no I am not joking!)
Tyres = £160+ for anything decent. I had Falkens on mine but the rears have barely done 8k before being illegal and I don't go around doing burnouts either! - that's Porsche Big Black brake money!
Rust= they are OK but wings can go rusty around the arches, and boot floors have a reputation for cracking where reinforcing them seems to resolve the issues (I plan to reinforce mine).
Servicing= IMO this is reasonably but it hurts at the time. It goes as follows going from specialist/indy rates

Every 15k/2 years = Oil Service ; £140-250
Every 30k/4 years = Inspection ; £400-715
Every 60k/6 years = Inspection II; £700-£1.4k

Alot of people do the Inspections cheaper but neglect checking the clearances as they are TBH a faff to do (I do indeed have the T-Shirt).

Make no mistake, I love mine. It's quick, great handling, quiet and has a great mix of Sports car and GT car about it. It's also surprisngly practical with seating for 4 with space and a decent boot.

However, I'd be lying if I said it was cheap to run. Here's a breakdown of what I have spent in the link below. When I bought the car I knew it needed new exhaust mounts, viscous fan coupling, and at a minimum the wings repainting up front which soon turned into a front end respray ; I did haggle accordingly for these.

http://www.pistonheads.com/members/show ... rId=264552

If you did your research I apologise, but it seems alot of people buy these thinking they are £6k for a good one and not much more than a 3 series in terms of running costs.