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3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge...? https://forums.tipec.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=17956	Page 1 of 5

Author:	Tristan315 [ Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge...?
Hello everyone, hope all is well! After 150k+ miles the bottom end of my 944 turbo could do with a bit of a refresh and I'm thinking that with all of the work needed to replace the piston rings (engine out) it would be rude not to bore and stroke the engine to 3.0ltr... I've read a lot around the topic and many many builds through the different forums and while I understand a lot of what I have read it's a very new area to me! I know there are a lot of people on this forum with a wealth of knowledge and wanted to run my thoughts / plans past you guys before doing anything stupid I am the lucky owner of Rick's (then Ben's) 944 turbo WUF, so a lot has already been done to the car and after 2-3 years of saving its time for me to try to add to their hard work which I obviously don't want to end in tears... of oil or water!!. After reading everything that I have managed to find about 3.0 ltr conversions I believe that I know what I need to buy for it but wanted to make this post to gain any feedback, experience, thoughts, ideas or any tips you may have... WUF has had a lot of amazing work done originally by Rick (who unfortunately I have not managed to make contact with since owning the car, Rick if you read this please send me a pm as it would be great to say hi!!). WUF is a 1990 944 Turbo (S spec 250 bhp) and has had the following modifications made (List from Rick Cannel's site) along with a few further tweaks... ........................................ Engine: K&N air filter on hard pipe directly in to the turbocharger (from GURU Racing stage 2 MAP Kit). Lindsey Racing Super 75 Turbo (T04 67mm compressor, KKK #8 water cooled hot side). Remote turbo oil filter. Tial 50mm dump valve with #11 spring. Lindsey Racing stage II Intercooler. Inlet manifold opened out, blended, matched to throttle body and cylinder head, inlet air temperature sensor installed, powder coated. Throttle body flowed and fitted with up rated seals. Custom hard pipes with charge air temperature sensors, powder coated. CTM modified stage IV cylinder head. Big valve (48 vs. 45mm inlets). Titanium retainers. Ports enlarged and flowed. 5 angle seats. Cometic head gasket. Modified Piper cam with higher lift. Vernier cam timing gear. Wolf cam sensor kit to trigger the engine management system and provide phase information. Lindsey Racing engine management system comprising Wolf-3D v4+ engine management computer to replace the Bosch DME engine management computer and J&S Ultra safeguard knock control computer to replace Bosch KLR knock control. Wolf-3d programmer / monitor mounted in centre console. RandomEMS cam sensor timing kit. Wideband O2 sensor & PLX 200 data converter. J&S knock display. 72lb/hr injectors running with sequential injection. Lindsey Racing up rated fuel pump. Lindsey Racing billet fuel rail, pressure gauge, vacuum kit, adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Laust vacuum manifold. Hayward & Scott stainless steel exhaust. 3" bore. 5" tailpipe or dual 4" dual rear tailpipe with no silencers - interchangeable. Catalytic converter removed. Tial F46mm dual port waste gate dumping to atmosphere Lindsey Racing remote additional oil cooler kit. Lindsey Racing remote oil catch tank. Vapour purge delete. Billet oil filter with 8 micron cartridge. Unique fully sequential ignition. The Wolf-3d provides 4 sequential ignition channels (one per cylinder). This feeds a custom 4-channel version of the J&S Ultra Safeguard that controls knock retard on a per cylinder basis by up to 10 degrees. The J&S then feeds an MSD DIS-4 4 channel ignition driver that provides up to 20 degrees burn up to 3000 RPM. This drives the individual ignition coils mounted directly on the spark plugs. The result is a 45 KV spark that is almost plasma like. Aeroquip piping on wastegate control. Calcium battery 700 / 130 Amp. Quick shift gear change. Magnetec oil. Swepco gearbox / diff oil. Air conditioning updated to R134a. Lindsey Racing SUPERMOUNT engine mounts. Brakes: Front 993TT big red callipers & 993 C2 turbo 3.6 322mm x-drilled discs. Rear M030 968 x-drilled discs & 4 pot callipers. Braided brake hoses. Castrol SRF fluid. EBC Red Ceramic pads all round. Suspension: M030. Lindsey Racing Spherical castor mounts. Lindsey Racing spherical adjustable camber top mounts. 1.5 degrees negative camber front and rear. Strut brace. Wheels - Porsche 2002 Carrera 5 spoke (genuine). Front 8.5 x 18". Rear 10 x 18". Pirelli P-Zero Rosso tyres. Front 245 40 ZR18 97Y. Rear 285 30 ZR18 N4. 7mm spacers at rear. Bodywork / Interior: Plasma headlamp bulbs 170/160w. Drive/Fog lamps fitted with Xenon Plasma bulbs. Iceshark heavy duty lighting loom. Alternator fitted with adjustable regulator - 0.5v higher voltage. 'Flamingeye' LED instrument cluster illumination. MOMO steering wheel on removable boss. Charge air temperature gauge to measure temperature in / out of the intercooler with cross-needles. Auto Meter 20 PSI boost gauge and EGT (exhaust gas temperature) pyrometer. Custom 'A' pillar gauge pod to take boost gauge, charge air temperature gauge and exhaust gas temperature gauge. Link Electronics air/fuel illuminated gauge fed by wide-band O2 sensor & PLX200 data converter. Porsche 931 bonnet (924 Turbo) ........................................ My plans are to use the original 2.5 litre bottom end but have Darton sleeves fitted and stroke using a S2 crank to take the capacity to 3.0litr. Buy forged rods and pistons to hopefully in the end have a strong/reliable engine to play with. I have the modified head (bigger intake valves) ceramic liners intact and will fit a modified intake manifold to help with the breathing. WUF already has 72lb injectors, a remappable ECU and a stage II LR intercooler so i think... that this side is already covered? I can buy all of the parts from LR but this is in America, costs a fair whack and will get hit with import duty and VAT. My main questions are.... Does anyone know if the parts I need can be sourced in the UK - light weight pistons and rods (with the offset to match 2.5 engine with s2 crank)? Should I go as light and strong as possible, my understanding is that I should? Should I keep the compression ratio standard? Would like 500+ bhp/torque! LR do a steam vent kit (need to drill the head and attach back to the coolant tank), this is supposed to cure an air pocked build up that happens in the 2.5 engine by cylinder 4 which I know is where WUF has blown gaskets before (but I am unsure as to why, reading round though could this be why?). Has anyone used this, does it work, could this help? Will a LR stage 2 intercooler be up to the task? What turbo should I look to use? The LR Super 75 is a beast but has quite a bit of lag, with the increased capacity though I believe it may actually get used as it should be (and work better)..? What turbos do you guys use and how do they drive? If I use a smaller turbo I know it will spool faster but I do enjoy it when it kicks in, will I lose this with this setup or is it likely to just happen quicker? Knife edging the crank, how will this effect things? Some say to do others say not to decrease the rotating mass too much... Clutch, any recommendations? I'm pretty certain that the NA will not be enough and WUF needs a new one anyway. It will be a street car mainly so need handle the power smoothly! LR do a lot of different kits but are there other alternatives? Has anyone used one of these SPEC "MINI TWIN" CLUTCH KIT 944T "951" how do they handle? Please let me know any thoughts, ideas or if I'm just going about this all wrong!! After 2 and a bit years of talking/thinking about doing this I want to make sure I do it right and end up with the car of my dreams (and do WUF justice)!! Kind Regards Tristan...

Author:	pauly [ Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Don't .

Author:	Tristan315 [ Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
But... but... but why not!? Hi Pauly hows it going?! On a serious note though, would you not because of cost, reliability, heat issues, other issues... Or were you just trolling

Author:	pauly [ Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
A modern properly sized BB turbo would likely transform WUF, anyway you're probably going to disappear soon .

Author:	Tristan315 [ Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
I have to do the piston rings though, so it would be the time to do it if I did...

Author:	951Torqing [ Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Tristan315 wrote: It will be a street car mainly so need handle the power smoothly! LR do a lot of different kits but are there other alternatives? Has anyone used one of these SPEC "MINI TWIN" CLUTCH KIT 944T "951" how do they handle? Please let me know any thoughts, ideas or if I'm just going about this all wrong!! After 2 and a bit years of talking/thinking about doing this I want to make sure I do it right and end up with the car of my dreams (and do WUF justice)!! Kind Regards Tristan... FWIW :- Serious Mods for mainly a street car, IMHO I would go for High Torque at lower revs rather than outright power. Might be worth giving Jon at JMGarage a call, he has vast experience of successful 944 Turbo mods (and can warn of drastic results that others have experienced) Clive

Author:	R/E 951 [ Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Hello Tristan, Im by no means an expert on 944 turbos but what I would say is you have a very well sorted engine and with a few modification it could be improved to what I think would be a very nice road car. The spec shows that you have a nicely modified head. By upping the capacity to 3ltrs you're going to hurt your volumetric efficiency at the higher end of the rev range. For this reason if I were in your position I would think of fitting a good BB turbo as already mentioned. This will give you much better performance low down which is probably what your looking for. Terra on here has fitted a GTX3071 which can produce as much boost as you wish and with the bigger hot side has a nice big rev range which is why I'd stay 2.5ltrs. It would appear his car is pulling hard from 3500rpm with boost much sooner and keeps pulling all the way to 6500rpm. With your 48mm intake valve and the performance higher up the rev range you would be getting yourself some extra ponies too presuming your car is still making around 400hp, I am currently working on a dual scroll project which feature an EFR 7064. This is nearly complete and all the calculations I have done and research shows that this should be a very responsive turbo. A 2ltr Subaru fitted with the same turbo produces 1 bar at 3250 rpm on a dyno which usually has less load than on the road. I am aiming for around 450hp which I would have though is easily achievable with your car. This is just my 2 pence Good luck with whatever you decide to do Robert

Author:	jmgarage [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
I have a lot of experience of building 944 turbo's with silly amounts of power in 2.5, 2.8, 3.0 and 3.2 configurations. I never believed that a car could be "over engined" until about 8 years ago when I experienced a 944 turbo 3.2 which was able to spin its rear tyres at 120 mph if you hit the throttle hard.. The 944 turbo seems to be at its best with about 400 bhp and 400 ft-lbs of torque, You can get 420 BHP from a 2.5 engine without going too crazy with 400 ft-lbs of torque without going too mad.. and this works well. We have had up to 700 ft-lbs of torque from the 3.2's, but this is WAY to much for the chassis, unless you go for traction control, but even with TC, the problem is stability, if you get the car slightly out of shape, even 1% of wheel spin which many TC systems allow, could see you in a hedge... and that fear has you constantly backed off from full power, which results in a slower car in reality. The main benefit from a larger capacity engine in a 944 turbo comes from the off boost performance and faster spooling turbo with the same turbo and peak BHP target, which can make the car pull like it has a massive V8 installed. Ricks car had good BHP on the rolling road, but it lacked torque in a big way, mainly because the turbo was too big for the application. Not a fan of the steam kits, it seems to solve a problem which really does not exist in my experience, but it also introduces a new weak spot.. Someone at NASA once said "With every stage of complexity you add, you loose reliability" and that same person also came up with some interesting formulas which are used even today to predict reliability of complex assemblies. So the Mantra is simplify for reliability... Adding a steam kit adds risks, such as a new hose to fail, a fastener which could corrode its threads in the head due to a sacrificial effect etc. The darton liners is also another example of adding complexity to solve a problem which does not exist.. With a 104mm bore block, such as a 2.7 or S2 block you will not have a problem with bore strength, and if you want very high rpms, then you might want to close the top deck, but otherwise, unless you run into detonation, you do not need steel liners, and adding those liners may cause problems of differential rates of expansion and sacrificial corrosion. Another problem is that the 2.5 block has some issues with windage which are addressed in the 2.7 and 3.0 blocks. our 3.2's used a custom made liner with a nickel ceramic coating, we only went this route as we needed a 108mm bore, which would have weakened the standard bore a little further than we were comfortable with, so like anything in engineering, the steel liners were a compromise in one form, to overcome a risk in another. We are building two 3.0 968 turbos at the moment, one is a dyno queen, one is being built as a GT car to cross continents, the second car will probably be running low boost and only aiming for 350 to 400 bhp to make it super reliable, as the owner wants it to last his lifetime and use it on long road trips while looking in every way like an original 968 Turbo S.

Author:	t3rra [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Hi how you doing. Be good to meet up I nearly bought bens car, your car now. Iv got gtx 3071 which will come on full boost 1.2/1.4 bar by 3k in 5th This turbo will match the spool up off 26/8 power wise it's rated to 550 hp the boost is the limiting factor. Gtx range can handle 2 bar (30psi) and are rated as such. Like lr75 is rated to 750 ( 1lb= 10 hp) I believe I'm around 400hp 60/100 4.5 secs But you lose the lag and you lose the kick. Power is more liner as turbo is making boost from well below 2k. For your set up I would say 3076 at least which will spool around 400 rep later then mine but produce 40 hp more per boost level. Even more with your head. If you went 3ltr or even 2.8 your could run a gtx35. My recommend is to make the engine capable off 600hp use the cost saved from increased capacity and put that towards gtx install. I would probably look in to running 16th head b4 increase capacity. The intake mainfold would need replacing to get near 500 hp anyway. Will be watching with interested as my next steps will be a rebuild which will look at the same choices. How much boost is to much. How well can we get 8v head flowing in the UK. If you do go 16v I would be interested in your head

Author:	Tristan315 [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Thanks for all of the feedback!! There are so many different ways to do this I'm just trying to decide the best route for me to go using the parts I already have where possible. I want to keep this car forever (foolish maybe but hey...) so I want to make sure any work done lasts and the parts used are more than up to the job. I would like a lot (read as silly but usable) amount of torque low down as I imagine losing the turbo kick will be more than compensated for by the car just pulling and pulling from the get go... hence thinking about going for an increased capacity. From reading so please correct me if wrong!! 2.5 turbo head is better for tuning than the S2 16v as it has ceramic liners - downside is the size of the intake valves/number vs S2 2.5 bottom end is stronger than the s2 and has better cooling - downside max bore is 104? needs offset con rods or modifying if using 3.0ltr crank The windage that you mentioned Jon can that be fixed by adding length to the oil pickup and using a trapdoor in the pan alongside knife edging the crank + squirters (or is this something else?) I thought Darton sleeves are a tried and tested system in terms of increasing the strength of an engine and were fine in an aluminium block. Would the MID system (if correctly installed) not be stronger and have better cooling than a 104 bore on the stock 2.5 cylinders? I have 2 super 75 turbos, 1 currently in the car and another brand new & balanced one sat wrapped up. Will try to read up and understand about the different turbos suggested, I thought that with the increase in capacity though that the new super 75 would be more than adequate and spool fast? I have to replace the piston rings so I will need to have the cylinders machined (so they are 100%) if paying for machining why stay at stock bore and maybe regret it later/have to pay again (is all I’m thinking)….

Author:	t3rra [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Cfm flow wise turbo head flows around 180 worked head 250 Now a stock n/a will flow 240. 16v iv think it read 320? Liners in turbo head help with velocity more then flow. However I don't no another to be giving advice. Turbo wise iv not seen many lr turbo offer larger tq. Seems like bhp rise but tq stays the same. Bb turbo will let you runner an even larger turbo then 75 yet match it for spool. Which means more power at less boost. Question is how much boost is to much. 2.5 block boars are single and move this is the issue. 3ltr block are grouped so thought to move less. Cost wise I think I would increase boar then have the it relined probably as both are just as costly.

Author:	Tristan315 [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Once it's done sure T3rra would be great to meet up! Maybe at a track..? Still reading but current plan (today's)... Modified intake Modified head Modified oil pickup and pan (squirters too?) Darton MID sleeve 104mm Lightest forged pistons and con rods Stroke with s2 crank (knife edge slightly?) Turbo - looking at now have a super 75 but will see Uprated clutch Piston and rod wise any suggestions (lightest forged)? If using 104mm sleeves do I still need offset con rods? t3rra compression wise what would you do? Standard from reading is 8:1 but I don't know how changing this will affect the car. Dropping the compression means that you are able to run higher boost so if I drop the compression will the bigger capacity keep the car speedy at low RPM but allow the turbo to spool faster? If you were building a 3ltr with the setup above what would you suggest running? standard or..? (sorry its next on my list to read up on) Clutch wise does anyone have any suggestions, I think I read that the standard is good for 400 so i need something stronger (for mainly a road use). Happy to go over the top here to help it last!!

Author:

sgl1966 [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:31 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..

Hi, for your rods can i suggest these from PPM in Australia . This photo shows them against standered S2 rods. I am using these in my 3 litre build and I believe Turbotim is using them in his. They also do them in titanium ! Good quality and only cost £400 including delivery (got to add on import tax).
Pistons I am using JE in sleeved block but also have another coated set(and rings) that work in alusil.Or use some machined 968 pistons as i have in my first engine but they wont handle the hp you are looking at.

Attachments:

16v pistons 003 (Small).JPG [ 88.19 KiB | Viewed 82821 times ]

16v pistons 004 (Small).JPG [ 94.04 KiB | Viewed 82821 times ]

Author:	Tristan315 [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Awesome, thanks dude will take a look now!! How long have you had your 3ltr running for?

Author:	sgl1966 [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3.0 liter 944 turbo project thoughts, ideas, knowledge..
Oh at least 20 mins !! But hope to have mot and on rolling road in the next couple of weeks. Been busy getting the rest of the car up to a standered to appreciate the extra performance. You can see on the thread 944 s2 repair, the earlier photos have dissapeared but the later ones are still there.

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