Porsche Enthusiasts Club Forum

So just been out replacing the tensioner pads on my S and I did the one thing you don't want to do, when putting the j tube back I dropped the lower washers for the centre banjo. I thought the oil stiction had them in place, but they fell.

I had rags underneath but they missed those

I've had a good look around with a torch but I can't see them. I suspect they have gone down the oil gallery that sits just below the j tube!

Not knowing this engine well, how worried should I be? Do these galleries run straight to the sump?

There's a strainer on the oil pickup? I'm going to have another look and mahbe drop the oil to see if they come out with it - but if I can't find them, what are the chances of an engine failure?

I was even askinf myself why people worry about the j tube banjos as I've had far more fiddly jobs!! Schoolboy!

Hi Andy, sorry to hear of your situation. I think the golden rule when working on the head is to ensure you stuff some rags across all the oil galleries before you start work...

Anyway, I recall the galleries do run straight down to the sump, they do taper a bit, so large stuff sometimes gets stuck. Opening the sump to drain while flushing some oil down the gallery might get them out. However, are you talking about the copper crush washers or something a bit more substantial? If steel, you could try the old magnet on a wire technique, just in case they are sticking to the side of the gallery?

The strainer will stop them going into the oil pump, but there is the crank to worry about..

I wouldn't really want to run the engine until I was satisfied that I had got them out, especially if they were steel..if they are the copper washers, I am unsure (as they are pretty soft) what might happen if they get hit by the crank..perhaps someone else has experience of this situation?

I'm bloody annoyed with myself Rhett!!

I did put rags underneath the area of the J tube & tensioner, as I knew it was a risk, but as I took it off it was fine and I thought no more about it.

In fact putting it back together I had more thoughts of stripped tensioner threads (which were totally fine on mine).

Unfortunately the washers either made it past the rags, or they fell as carefully pulled them out.

The crush washers are aluminium, and I had similar thoughts with the crank/rod caps thrashing about above the sump!!

I'm working 6am-6pm tomorrow so won't get chance to look, but Monday I will have another thorough look in the head, and if not will drop the oil, and try flushing from the gallery as you suggest.

I should really know better as I deal with fiddly stuff day to day, but my mind was wandering!! Lesson learnt anyway!

Incidentally, with these washers, is there any reason that they are aluminium? Can I replace them with normal copper washers?

I have a feeling that copper is slightly stiffer than aluminium, so given the lo-torque application of the J tube, Porsche probably went with aluminium to get a good seal with the softer material. That said, I think I replaced mine with standard copper as I had them to hand..hasn't proved to be a problem.

Good luck with your washer hunting!

Hmm, I know I have plenty of copper washers at work, but not sure about aluminium ones. But you make a good point, the banjo bolts aren't done up particuarly tight.

I'll stick to aluminium.

What was also strange, is that whoever had had the J tube off last had decided to put two washers per side of the banjo, so each banjo had four washers. I did think this was odd, and looking on PET it should just be two washer per banjo as expected.

So through my myself and someone elses, I have two washers floating around, when it could have been one or none, lol!!

Hi Andy, I did scratch my head a bit when you mentioned lower 'washers'...I tried to recall what mine had (done a few years ago now), but I thought it was only one per side..I wonder why two were fitted? - seems strange..

Well, I've had a good look around with a torch & mirror - can't see them hiding anywhere.

I dropped the oil and drained through some mesh, no sign of them.

Flushed 5 litres of oil directly down the oil gallery that is beneath the j tube - still no joy.

Looking at how gravity would pull the washers, they must have gone down the gallery beneath the j tube - trouble is, I can't be 100%.

So - next option is to drop the sump. How much of a job is this? Cross member has to be removed I guess?

Part of me says if they make it to the sump, it's probably not an issue, even if the crank disturbs the oil enough for them to move around, they won't get into a journal but I suppose they could get caught up between the rod caps & block - or is that not very likely?

So bloody annoying!!

Sorry to hear you have not had a quick success here! I would carry on with the flush-out and leave the sump open and pour the oil back in straight down the gallery again. Doing this several times might work?..unless you have already done this a bunch of times.. .

Dropping the sump appears to be straightforward, but I haven't had to attempt it, so I will leave that advice to someone who has. However, a few more hours doing the flush out must be easier and might just work?

Good luck. if you need an extra pair of eyes, let me know!

Just had a look on the Pelican Parts forum, there is mixed advice regarding this (you are not the only one!). Some suggest you must get the washers out, others say 'don't sweat it, as they are aluminium'. Also, there are suggestions that the washers can get stuck in the gallery tube. I can't recall how narrow they get, but as I have an old block siting in the garden, I'll shine a torch down as see what I can see.

Later....Well, I had a look at the washers and they have quite a large external diameter, then I had a look at the oil gallery and I have to say that it is going to be tight for a washer that size to pass straight through and into the sump. Unless it is oriented exactly the right way, I think it might easily get stuck, and as there might be two of them down the same hole??

Thanks Rhett, you're a star!!

From memory, the washers are m8 x 12.

If they are stuck then there's a chance I can fish them out. We had a nice borescope camera at work but one of the fitters managed to snap the end off!! Might be worth me getting one to have a look.

The realist in me says after 5l of oil down that single gallery if they were going to come out, then they probably would javw done first time. But yes, it would probably be worth a few goes. However, in light of you latest info, I think I'll try a borescope!

My biggest worry is if it has not gone down the oil gallery and has slipped inside a valve spring.

However it being in the sump, it is not going to get sucked up into the oil pump because of the strainer, but it might get whipped up at high rpm and thrown up a bore, but thats unlikely.. We have found this sort of thing in customers cars in the sump during a rebuild or a sump reseal and it has probably often been there for years or decades without moving.. But there is an element of risk.

Get that Borescope fixed and poke it down there and find the little buggers!

Jon, this is part of the reason I don't want to accept defeat until I have found them!! I can see that they could have fell into one of the adjacent valve springs - I've had a good look around with a torch and mirror, and couldn't see anything - but I can't be 100%. In terms of gravity, they do look destined for the gallery, but I did have rags underneath which may deflected them.

I have a new borescope on the way, so hopefully I will be able to find them. Only a cheapie, but will be good enough to look down the galleries, I'll have a look at my bores as well while I'm there!!

If I can't, and with regard the risk of them falling into valve springs, I'll try turning the engine over by hand while looking carefully at the valve gear.

If I go down the sump drop route I started to plan a lot of 'while you're there' work, including engine mounts, PAS refresh, steering shaft, bit of vapour blasting/powder coating - it was starting to add up!!

How's the hunt for these washers going Andy?