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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Brewer wrote:
Blue s2 with beige cam cover? If that one, then it is my car. Tps not connected


My car will run with the TPS disconnected, AFAIK the DME then estimates throttle position rather than having a real time input....


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:03 pm 
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I have asked them to get tps connected, and answer was no tps required if got stable vacuum. Options where tps or map, not both together.

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93' MB r129 SL500 (SOLD, and missed)
97 'Jaguar XJ Sport


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:29 pm 
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I have a VEMS on my S2 from Peep Paadam in Estonia https://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche/, Plug and play means plug it in then play a lot in getting it set up for the individual engine, I went for coil on plugs, mine has a TPS from a turbo (as supplied by Peep) I had a few teething problems but I'm getting there, It's a steep learning curve no matter which one you go for but overall I'm happy with my set up and can see great potential once I learn how to do certain things ( sequential injection, Dual knock sensing (Comes programmed with one knock sensor) Vemsdisplay for Android)
I think Peep charges about 1250 euros, the COP are an added 250 euros, this is posted
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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:18 am 
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Brewer wrote:
I have asked them to get tps connected, and answer was no tps required if got stable vacuum. Options where tps or map, not both together.


Why not both?


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:02 am 
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pauly wrote:
Bon Voyage wrote:

In my mind both Vems and Augtronic have their plus and minuses,



What minuses do you think VEMS has?


The board currently used in the Vems has been around for quite a while now, and although works fine I feel there might be something new on the horizon. Firmware upgrades have also slowed down quite a bit too which also makes me think their working on something new. If not, then im not so sure as Vems doesn’t have the huge tuner support in the UK. I spoke to three tuners I’ve used in the past and two didn’t really want to know, and the third would tune it but muttered something about certain parameters being hard buried in and not as adjustable as they’d like, so for me this is a bit of a minus.

pauly wrote:
Brewer wrote:
I have asked them to get tps connected, and answer was no tps required if got stable vacuum. Options where tps or map, not both together.


Why not both?


I’m interested in why not both too, does the AugTronic not have the capability to switch between both? I would of thought TPS would of worked better for idling with hotter cams.


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:57 am 
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Bon Voyage wrote:
pauly wrote:
Bon Voyage wrote:

In my mind both Vems and Augtronic have their plus and minuses,



What minuses do you think VEMS has?


The board currently used in the Vems has been around for quite a while now, and although works fine I feel there might be something new on the horizon. Firmware upgrades have also slowed down quite a bit too which also makes me think their working on something new. If not, then im not so sure as Vems doesn’t have the huge tuner support in the UK. I spoke to three tuners I’ve used in the past and two didn’t really want to know, and the third would tune it but muttered something about certain parameters being hard buried in and not as adjustable as they’d like, so for me this is a bit of a minus.



I take your points about VEMS, (though not relative to Augment). And to be fair it's not competing with the likes of Motec etc. I think there's a couple Yankee tuners that offer a 944 plug and play standalone, but they were a lot more money and the free support seemed limited. As for the TPS or MAP scenario, it sounds like an unnecessary compromise to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:01 pm 
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I take your points about VEMS, (though not relative to Augment). And to be fair it's not competing with the likes of Motec etc. I think there's a couple Yankee tuners that offer a 944 plug and play standalone, but they were a lot more money and the free support seemed limited. As for the TPS or MAP scenario, it sounds like an unnecessary compromise to me.[/quote]

When I said AugTronic and Vems have their plus and minuses I wasn’t comparing their capabilities as ECU’s, more their package as a whole for me. For example, Vems is a well documented and used ECU with good options for the price and PnP, this is a plus. Having to fit it and find someone to tune it and it’s lack of support in the UK, is a minus. AugTronic, PnP, being able to have it fitted and tuned under one roof and being able to physically go there if there’s an issue, is a plus. Having very limited support and not well documented, small batch ECU, a minus, and so on an so forth. I’m not knocking either, just trying to find the best option for me. Vems is competing with MegaSquirt though, and if there was a PnP option for the Porker using an MS3 pro I would choose it over the Vems, if only for the support it gets. I had a look at some of the American stuff, but would worry about the support for them as well. Basically I’m becoming a lazy old bugger and want someone to do it all for me, and fix it quickly if it breaks!
TPS/Map, Sounds like someone was being a bit lazy, works well enough on Map, so need to bother with TPS. Could be wrong though, it has been known!


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:53 pm 
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Brewer wrote:
They done mapping few times, haven't played myself as im bad at it :D
At the moment im sorting out dead lifters. No vacuum leaks too. Will try playing with mapping later, no time due work


When you have sorted your lifters, if you still have an idle issue get in touch I will do what I can to sort it for you. Sorry we didn't catch it last time, ECU calibration is tricky and if you change one thing often it affects another.

Not sure about the MAP vs TPS arguments going on here. The 944's only have open/closed switches not throttle potentiometers. They only use them for switching to certain ignition/fuel maps under certain conditions. The turbo has a potentiometer but it feeds the KLR not the ECU. MAP and TPS have their pro's and cons and you need to know how and when to use them to get the best result. You can use both but you have to decide how to make best use of the two signals which are telling you different things. AFM/MAF are different again and also have their pros and cons.

Happy 944ing!

Tom

_________________
1984 944 8v - AugTronic with wasted spark
1983 944 8v - Stock
1986 944 turbo -AugTronic, EGT sensing, Knock Sensing, Closed Loop Fueling
1987 924 s - AugTronic

944 Tuning - http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk - http://www.facebook.com/augmentautomotive.


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:35 am 
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barks944 wrote:
Brewer wrote:
They done mapping few times, haven't played myself as im bad at it :D
At the moment im sorting out dead lifters. No vacuum leaks too. Will try playing with mapping later, no time due work


When you have sorted your lifters, if you still have an idle issue get in touch I will do what I can to sort it for you. Sorry we didn't catch it last time, ECU calibration is tricky and if you change one thing often it affects another.

Not sure about the MAP vs TPS arguments going on here. The 944's only have open/closed switches not throttle potentiometers. They only use them for switching to certain ignition/fuel maps under certain conditions. The turbo has a potentiometer but it feeds the KLR not the ECU. MAP and TPS have their pro's and cons and you need to know how and when to use them to get the best result. You can use both but you have to decide how to make best use of the two signals which are telling you different things. AFM/MAF are different again and also have their pros and cons.

Happy 944ing!

Tom


No arguments going on here, just information gathering on options for ECU’s. The TPS/Map question arose because Brewer mentioned the car was running only from Map, and we questioned why Map and TPS wasn’t used in conjunction with each other for better idle control as he is running cams with a bigger overlap. The Vems PnP kit that racenoy sells offers a variable TPS as an option for NA 944’s, is this an option available from Augment too?


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Yes it is. You do need to change the throttle sensor on the 944 NA models to the correct type (potentiometer not closed/open switches).

Based on my experience over the last 8 or so years developing the AugTronic ECU and tuning 944s with modified cams I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about requiring TPS as soon as you have a cam with overlap. It's kind of a progressive thing where the pressure fluctuations in the manifold get more and more severe as the camshaft gets more overlap. It tends to be worse at high rpm and load. That said I've even used MAP on pretty much race cams we grind on billet blanks and it's still possible to get them to idle and perform well.

_________________
1984 944 8v - AugTronic with wasted spark
1983 944 8v - Stock
1986 944 turbo -AugTronic, EGT sensing, Knock Sensing, Closed Loop Fueling
1987 924 s - AugTronic

944 Tuning - http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk - http://www.facebook.com/augmentautomotive.


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:42 pm 
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barks944 wrote:
Yes it is. You do need to change the throttle sensor on the 944 NA models to the correct type (potentiometer not closed/open switches).

Based on my experience over the last 8 or so years developing the AugTronic ECU and tuning 944s with modified cams I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about requiring TPS as soon as you have a cam with overlap. It's kind of a progressive thing where the pressure fluctuations in the manifold get more and more severe as the camshaft gets more overlap. It tends to be worse at high rpm and load. That said I've even used MAP on pretty much race cams we grind on billet blanks and it's still possible to get them to idle and perform well.


This is good to know, thank you for taking the time to respond.
After weighing up the pros & cons of both standalone and chipsets for my application at this time, I think I’ll have to go the chipset route. My reasoning for this is pretty simple, performance cost ratio. I’ve just had to replace my clutch, engine mounts, discs & pads and a few other bits, so the wallet is feeling a little light! The car is running standard injectors and turbo/exhaust for the time being, and for the cost of a tuned standalone I can get a chipset, wastegate, FPR, motorsport fuel pump, manual boost controller all fitted and run in. My original plan was to upgrade the turbo, exhaust and injectors and run it on a standalone, that’ll have to wait until summer now. :crybaby: But I still want to perk the car up a bit, so a chipset etc will have to do for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Bon Voyage wrote:

This is good to know, thank you for taking the time to respond.
After weighing up the pros & cons of both standalone and chipsets for my application at this time, I think I’ll have to go the chipset route. My reasoning for this is pretty simple, performance cost ratio. I’ve just had to replace my clutch, engine mounts, discs & pads and a few other bits, so the wallet is feeling a little light! The car is running standard injectors and turbo/exhaust for the time being, and for the cost of a tuned standalone I can get a chipset, wastegate, FPR, motorsport fuel pump, manual boost controller all fitted and run in. My original plan was to upgrade the turbo, exhaust and injectors and run it on a standalone, that’ll have to wait until summer now. :crybaby: But I still want to perk the car up a bit, so a chipset etc will have to do for now.


You can shim the standard wastegate, and if your fuel pump is in good condition a Motorsport fuel pump isn't really needed with just chips. An external boost gauge and AFR gauge are pretty much essential, along with a fuel pressure gauge if you don't already have them.


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:28 pm 
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pauly wrote:
Bon Voyage wrote:

This is good to know, thank you for taking the time to respond.
After weighing up the pros & cons of both standalone and chipsets for my application at this time, I think I’ll have to go the chipset route. My reasoning for this is pretty simple, performance cost ratio. I’ve just had to replace my clutch, engine mounts, discs & pads and a few other bits, so the wallet is feeling a little light! The car is running standard injectors and turbo/exhaust for the time being, and for the cost of a tuned standalone I can get a chipset, wastegate, FPR, motorsport fuel pump, manual boost controller all fitted and run in. My original plan was to upgrade the turbo, exhaust and injectors and run it on a standalone, that’ll have to wait until summer now. :crybaby: But I still want to perk the car up a bit, so a chipset etc will have to do for now.


You can shim the standard wastegate, and if your fuel pump is in good condition a Motorsport fuel pump isn't really needed with just chips. An external boost gauge and AFR gauge are pretty much essential, along with a fuel pressure gauge if you don't already have them.


Thanks Pauly, I’m getting a tial and pump more for future plans than the chip upgrade. I don’t really like aftermarket gauges, and this for me is the downside using a chipset and not a standalone. My other car only has 1 extra gauge, oil temp/pressure and a little LED for coolant cold/hot on the steering column. Everything else is controlled via the ECU, knock, AFR, Boost, and can be viewed on my stereo screen if I wanted, but I have set limp mode parameters up on the ECU if things go pear shaped so don’t really use it. Anyway if I have time to look at gauges, I’m not going fast enough! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Must be an age thing :) , I prefer a row of white faced gauges in a 90's car.


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 Post subject: Re: Vems or Augment Ecu or Chipset?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:13 pm 
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pauly wrote:
Must be an age thing :) , I prefer a row of white faced gauges in a 90's car.

I remember many moons ago putting Lockwood white face dials in a Mk3 escort RS1600, I broke the oil temp needle and spent about a day with a magnifying glass trying to fix it, I think that’s why I hate them! You should of seen me at the traffic lights when it started to move after the fix, jumping around shouting in the car, I’m looked like a lunatic!!


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