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 Post subject: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:58 am 
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Hi, I'm building my car for primarily track use [with the odd Euro road trip thrown in] and its ready for a bit of a brake overhaul so i'd be interested in your thoughts on which way to go. Its running standard discs at present and the calipers could really do with a refurb too.
I'm tempted to look at a M030 set up which i believe is essentially 928 discs and 993 calipers - is that right?
The car has wide body, Gaz golds, custom exhaust, GTS h/light conversion etc. As Its pretty far from standard now M030 isnt going to really affect or add to its [notional] value so is anyone running aftermarket discs / calipers that they'd recommend i look at?

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:37 pm 
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http://www.wilwood.com/

not a bad place to start

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:50 pm 
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Im building something similar have fitted the m030 option front brakes as staying with 16" wheels

Wheel size guides max brake disc size.

If you look at the m030 discs there masiveley wide giving plenty of material to dissipate heat

Along with right pads and ducting should give me plenty of brakes for 20 min track sessions

And there an easy bolt on


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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Waylander wrote:
http://www.wilwood.com/

not a bad place to start


Wilwood kit is nice.

When I was running a 944 track-day car, about 3 years ago, I had a long conversation on brakes at the Autosport show with a chap from Wilwood. He said "We don't do a kit for 944s because there's no point, the Porsche stuff is more than good enough".

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:46 pm 
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GlennS wrote:
Waylander wrote:
http://www.wilwood.com/

not a bad place to start


Wilwood kit is nice.

When I was running a 944 track-day car, about 3 years ago, I had a long conversation on brakes at the Autosport show with a chap from Wilwood. He said "We don't do a kit for 944s because there's no point, the Porsche stuff is more than good enough".



The early 944 sliding calipers are not as strong as the fixed Brembo types on the Turbo, S2 & 968.

I've gone all singing 6 pot front 4 pot rear Wilwood and they are astounding powerful, & better than all the production brakes so I wouldn't want anything less now..



R

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:08 pm 
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You could get a lot more performance out of the standard brake set-up by refurbing rather than upgrading. If they’ve not been refurbed before, you’ll see huge improvement from attending to any plate lift, replacing piston seals, cleaning and greasing pistons, replacing dust boots.

You can test for potential improvement before doing any of the work once you’ve removed calipers. If you have access to compressed air, you can check if the pistons move out smoothly with little puffs of air into the hydraulic port. Bet you’ll find some are sticking, and need a lot of air at high pressure to persuade them to move. After refurb they’ll move very smoothly with much lower pressure air.

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:41 am 
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All useful info, thank you.

I'll definitely refurb the stock calipers regardless...if i fleebay them the funds can go towards the end solution. I'll speak to willwood and price up against M030 and see what a cost vs reward I end up with.

Thanks again


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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:33 am 
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slickv8 wrote:
All useful info, thank you.

I'll definitely refurb the stock calipers regardless...if i fleebay them the funds can go towards the end solution. I'll speak to willwood and price up against M030 and see what a cost vs reward I end up with.

Thanks again


for Brembo Calipers, Mode Performance have all the spare parts, the last set I did worked out about £120 per axle, for all the bits,

new bleed nipples can be purchased off ebay for a Mondeo 10 for about £8, or if you want to go stainless look for Ducati Brembo ones

but they cost about £8 each

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:34 pm 
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slickv8 wrote:
All useful info, thank you.

I'll definitely refurb the stock calipers regardless...if i fleebay them the funds can go towards the end solution. I'll speak to willwood and price up against M030 and see what a cost vs reward I end up with.

Thanks again


When I fitted my Wilwood's they didn't offer any kits or brackets at the time (2013),
I had to source them from 2 separate companies for the front & Rear.

http://www.wagenswest.com/partstore/ind ... -pair.html

https://transporterhaus.de/index.php/about-us/

And they both needed the shape "trimming" to make them fit, also the rear pads overhung the disc by 2mm and the pads needed trimming and the front discs needed reducing in diameter from 282 to 278mm, so they are not a straight
plug and play fit!

Apart from Compbrake and for 17 or 18" wheels I still don;t think anyone does any specific kits for the early or later cars?

The Dynalite 4 piston calipers cone in three different piston sizes, as also do the DynaPro 6 piston, each variant has a set amount of clamping pressure and I got BG Motorsport to work all the maths for me and ordered a 6 & 4 piston front & rear set up also with a Bias valve in the rear line to restrict them working fully if the rear locks before the fronts.

Image

Image


R

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:38 am 
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I'm using the M030 spec fronts with std rears, I also changed the proportioning valve. Pads are std Textar. I previously used Pagid yellows with std front brakes but they squeal and chew the discs. produce a lot of dust. The ABS was siezed so that was rebuilt with Merc internals. I added the 968 air deflecor to the front wishbone with some custom made brackets. All lines replaced with Kunifer, front flexies from HEL, std new rear flexis the braided lines don't like to be twisted. I didn't really have problems with the std brakes but the fronts had suffered with bad pad lift and like yours needed a refurb. Euro carparts had the 928 discs on offer and I had a set of 993 front calipers going spare. You have to flip the 993 bleed nipples and bridge pipe because they would be upside down. Adaptor kit from Promax (rip). the front backing plates run close to the wider 928 disc and had to be tweaked a bit. The discs are non drilled.
I feel very confident with the brakes, well balanced and progressive, plenty of feel, never faded. I've seen a 968 with cooked rears but something was a bit wrong with that set up. The front calipers are quite a bit heavier than std or Willwood.

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:57 am 
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Endoman wrote:
. The front calipers are quite a bit heavier than std or Willwood.



Yes the Sliding type iron (ate?) 4 caliper set removed and changed with the Aluminium Wilwoods saved over 10kg !

R

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:29 am 
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I'm going to go against the grain here. I've owned a car on super low mileage Wilwoods; think barely 200 miles. IMHO yes they were better than what was on the car but it was only because the stock brakes were awful for the application ; anything would have been an improvement. When I kept the discs and went to sliding pot Cosworth calipers on my Series 1 Escort RS Turbo that made the Wilwoods look feeble in every way ; except looks. The piston size was a questionable size for the car (IMHO they should have been 20% bigger) but it's what came with a Wilwood kit.... The Cosworth calipers also allowed me to keep the stock 15" wheels.

I suspect other Wilwood owners are the same ; if they came from an inadequate or quite often a seized brake set with pattern pads and shot discs most things would be an improvement.

I've also owned a 944 turbo on Big Blacks. That setup does stop well but you need to give the pedal a shove and the pedal feeling is numb.

If it were me I'd do the following:

-Non-S2/Turbo ; the ATEs : Either get very good fast road pads like Performance Frictions or Pagid RS29s or look to getting a Boxster based setup on the right adaptors.

-S2/Turbo : M030 brakes ; simple. They can stop Paul Anderson's race 928 and have been regarded as a very solid setup with Pagid RS29s.

I've used the RS29s on a couple of cars including trying brand new cars with them and they are a very impressive pad. Pricey but superb. I plan to use a set in the M3.

About the Wilwoods it's not just me that's said that. I'm sure a known Porsche Racing specialist has as does a well known Ford tuning outfit ; Norris Motorsport.

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 Post subject: Re: 944 Turbo track car brakes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:53 am 
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AlpineTurbo wrote:
I'm going to go against the grain here. I've owned a car on super low mileage Wilwoods; think barely 200 miles. IMHO yes they were better than what was on the car but it was only because the stock brakes were awful for the application ; anything would have been an improvement. When I kept the discs and went to sliding pot Cosworth calipers on my Series 1 Escort RS Turbo that made the Wilwoods look feeble in every way ; except looks. The piston size was a questionable size for the car (IMHO they should have been 20% bigger) but it's what came with a Wilwood kit.... The Cosworth calipers also allowed me to keep the stock 15" wheels.

I suspect other Wilwood owners are the same ; if they came from an inadequate or quite often a seized brake set with pattern pads and shot discs most things would be an improvement.

I've also owned a 944 turbo on Big Blacks. That setup does stop well but you need to give the pedal a shove and the pedal feeling is numb.

If it were me I'd do the following:

-Non-S2/Turbo ; the ATEs : Either get very good fast road pads like Performance Frictions or Pagid RS29s or look to getting a Boxster based setup on the right adaptors.

-S2/Turbo : M030 brakes ; simple. They can stop Paul Anderson's race 928 and have been regarded as a very solid setup with Pagid RS29s.

I've used the RS29s on a couple of cars including trying brand new cars with them and they are a very impressive pad. Pricey but superb. I plan to use a set in the M3.

About the Wilwoods it's not just me that's said that. I'm sure a known Porsche Racing specialist has as does a well known Ford tuning outfit ; Norris Motorsport.




Yes it goes without saying that unless the maths are done and correctly, just bolting on a set of calipers on will and can
make the braking worst or not as effective as you want like your Ford Escort Example.

Many Brake companies just offer you a KIT and don't take in many or any details that could have some adverse effects
Wilwood have always been a good quality Budget supplier of calipers, a quarter or more less cost than the big boys like AP and Alcon etc..

You found the Big blacks good but needing a lot of pedal effort, this is because all brake systems work on different
bore and bias sizes and pedal pressures etc..


All these contributing factors need looking at and calculating if your looking to change either calipers on any or both axles : Piston sizes, disc diameters, pad size/shape wheel and tyre circumferences , vehicle weight and the front / rear distribution etc... all need calculating.

I had this done professionally and with a computer programme the following can be calculated:

- Brake Line pressure
- Piston area
- Clamping force per disc
- Torque per Disc
- Contact patch force
- System front / rear bias percentage

And one of the most important the amount of
- Pedal Pressure to lock each axle

For example the Sliding ate calipers (944 / 924S) V the Wilwood 20 piston system set up I went for
compare

Clamping force per disc in psi

ate -1460 Front 1034 Rear
Wilwood - 1608 Front 1090 Rear

Caliper Piston area

ate -14.186" Front 9.621" Rear
Wilwood - 15.587" Front 11.879" Rear

Pedal pressure to lock Lbs

ate -94 Front 82 Rear
Wilwood - 84 Front 68 Rear

So the new Wilwood system has more power / torque and with less pedal pressure required compared
to the standard ate system, as you can imagine this on a standard car would be an impressive increase
in the amount of braking power available with less pedal effort but even more so on a car with 230kg less vehicle weight.

I drove a 968CS racecar last week at Oulton park with Big blacks and then also my 924 on this Wilwood system
The 968 was approx 160kg heavier than mine and the brakes were good but not as strong as the Wilwoods.

So I appreciate on some applications (as any component on a car) benefits can sometimes be lacking but if the maths and theories are applied good results can be achieved and hence it's unfair to declare that in this case Wilwoods Calipers are not up to much.

I do agree however that other calipers like AP, Alcon and brembo are stronger (Less flex) and even better quality but in regard to this post and the questions on what's available and what's the best to be fitted etc...the Wilwoods do offer a good upgrade and value for money, but some mods and calculations are required there's no bolt on immediate kit available yet.

I may put together and make some kits up to sell one day as there is some demand for such.

R

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