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 Post subject: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:39 pm 
Tipec is structured after the PCGB. The top down structure of the PCGB eventually led to an ultra vires agreement to make the PCGB subject to German Law and civil war erupted in the Club.

Making Tipec regions autonomous and self governing would

1. Create a bottom up structure more in keeping with the informal spirit in which the Club was formed.


2. Allow Regions to develop according to their circumstance.


3 Prevent problems and hostilities which the PCGB will never be
free from under its top heavy structure.

4. Allow for a more relaxed form of locally centred Club life


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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Hi :)

Interesting thought...

As many of you know, I have had my "problems" with the PCGB, as have many others and Roland is correct its mainly caused by the people at the "Top"...

The jobs for the old boys system that they use to elect Directors and the lets move a Director on to "Motorsport" which is a paid Directorship of course, does not encourage democracy.

Also somewhere along the way, the Directors seem to totally forget the fact that its meant to be a "CAR CLUB"

For Tipec....hmm..I am not sure if its going that way yet or not....god forbid if it ever does...

Tipec has advantages in the fact thats its not 911 based...yet... and the financial advantages that the PCGB higher ups get is not happening yet...

In the PCGB the Directors seem to control downwards and in Tipec at the moment is seems to be loacl areas that decide which is good....

Lets hope it stays that way :)

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Rev. Roland wrote:
Tipec is structured after PCGB

Making Tipec regions autonomous and self governing would

1. Create a bottom up structure more in keeping with the informal spirit in which the Club was formed.


2. Allow Regions to develop according to their circumstance.


3 Prevent problems and hostilities which the PCGB will never be
free from under its top heavy structure.

4. Allow for a more relaxed form of locally centred Club life


Not sure I agree with any of this for the following reasons:

1. Tipec regions do run their own affairs, organise their own meets/events etc without any input or interference from commitee

2. The regions do develop according to the RO/ARO for the region and circumstances of the region and its geography.

3. You will never sort all problems arising in a club as you can never keep everyone happy all the time.

4. Club life is centered around each region. For example how many non Southern region events/meets have you attended? Most members will only attend their own regions events other than possibly the National Event so each region is almost a club within a club.

As far as I am aware the Commitees involvement at local level is only to encourage promotion of the club, encourage use of the forum and All Torque to promote regional events etc and to provide an "umbrella" to give us a national identity.

At the risk of appearing to give a "put down" (and this is not the intention at all) why not attend the next AGM and put your thoughts/recommendations forward for debate?

Paul

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Rev. Roland wrote:
Tipec is structured after the PCGB. The top down structure of the PCGB eventually led to an ultra vires agreement to make the PCGB subject to German Law and civil war erupted in the Club.

Making Tipec regions autonomous and self governing would

1. Create a bottom up structure more in keeping with the informal spirit in which the Club was formed.
2. Allow Regions to develop according to their circumstance.
3 Prevent problems and hostilities which the PCGB will never be
free from under its top heavy structure.
4. Allow for a more relaxed form of locally centred Club life


Roland,

interesting thoughts.

1. This only works up to a point, if each region has to organise it's own affairs their will be massive duplication, forum, admin etc.
2. I believed they did & do? Certainly my group has developed from Zero with little input from the committee, but having said that it would have been there if required.
3. A lot of the PCGB issues have been because of its policy of having a lot of full time staff, some of which I understand have been perceived as being slightly out of touch with the members?
4. How more relaxed can it be???? See point 2!

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:14 am 
I made the suggestion following problems in the Southern Region.

First, Brett was the only chap pushing for us to organise an annual event but like me he let membership lapse after Sean censured 2 posts last year pointing to the unacceptable face of porsche. ( I was certainly very concerned after I received an email from Andy Goss in response to one copied to Wolfgang Porsche. The email displayed contempt for Britain claiming it was "highly inappropriate" for British dealers to legally import cars for legal sale within legal British free market practices. The censured posts were about another disconcerting email. Porsche needs to understand its role in the UK is as a supplier of cars not of a mini fourth Reich.)

Sean was unwilling to allow the region be run by a committee including Brett whom we could delegate all the work.

Second, I did rejoin this year, made a video of a small convoy to Portland, which some said they were looking forward to seeing and it was received favourably, yet Sean stepped in and in a derisive email claimed I had undermined the integrity of the club and every last man woman and child in the Southern Region.

I've now left the club for the second time because it seems to be run as a personal empire or with a view to empire building with events at local level seen just as bricks for the national edifice.


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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:12 am 
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Rev. Roland wrote:
I made the suggestion following problems in the Southern Region.

First, Brett was the only chap pushing for us to organise an annual event but like me he let membership lapse after Sean censured 2 posts last year pointing to the unacceptable face of porsche. ( I was certainly very concerned after I received an email from Andy Goss in response to one copied to Wolfgang Porsche. The email displayed contempt for Britain claiming it was "highly inappropriate" for British dealers to legally import cars for legal sale within legal British free market practices. The censured posts were about another disconcerting email. Porsche needs to understand its role in the UK is as a supplier of cars not of a mini fourth Reich.)

Sean was unwilling to allow the region be run by a committee including Brett whom we could delegate all the work.

Second, I did rejoin this year, made a video of a small convoy to Portland, which some said they were looking forward to seeing and it was received favourably, yet Sean stepped in and in a derisive email claimed I had undermined the integrity of the club and every last man woman and child in the Southern Region.

I've now left the club for the second time because it seems to be run as a personal empire or with a view to empire building with events at local level seen just as bricks for the national edifice.


Sounds to me like you and Brett should start your own club as you are obviously rather disgruntled with TIPEC?


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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:19 am 
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Roland a slightly diluted version of what actually happened, yes?

Firstly it was me who deleted Bretts two posts at the time. Don't forget this was when he was banned from 2 forums to my knowledge. One of those being PCGB where he was being very vocal. He then started complaining long & loud everywhere else to the point where people just got fed up. He bought those complaints here & hacked everyone else off. Despite various warnings we deleted the specific posts, an overall ban would have been much quicker but we were more benevolent than PCGB.

As for your comment
"Second, I did rejoin this year, made a video of a small convoy to Portland, which some said they were looking forward to seeing and it was received favourably, yet Sean stepped in and in a derisive email claimed I had undermined the integrity of the club and every last man woman and child in the Southern Region."

Sean asked that you alter the title of the Video because we didn't like the phrase 'Car Chase' used in conjunction with what the club does. Not unreasonable? But you decided you didn't like the criticism & decided to take offense.
This is a national club & it can't have escaped even you that cars, especially Sports cars are not viewed in a good light by some people. Having a comment that could be viewed as inflammatory in todays times wasn't that wise.

As for having a regional committee that you keep banging on about I don't see what the problem is? I run a region with an ARO & it is as democratic as I can make it, if someone brings an idea to us then we'll discuss as a group & if we like it go ahead, very often with the originator organising it. If you want to kick something off in the area I'm sure Nick will be more than happy, providing he agrees with it. If that is big enough to warrant assistance then bring those in & if you want to call that a committee so what! What we cannot have is a club within a club which would achieve nothing.

As for empires then you know nothing of what goes on to run the club. We will run the club for the overall good of the members & I believe bearing in mind the climbing membership in a difficult meeting, plus the very successful National event a onth or so ago then that must be obvious that the club is doing well.

If you'd kept your membership then you could have come to the AGM & addressed these directly rather than using the forum as a pulpit.

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http://tipec.net/region_southeastlondon.php

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:31 am 
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This is not in defence of the club (TIPEC), or any individual (Sean), and is not taking sides -it is simply an observation.

I have previously, I think on more than one occaision, personally recommended to moderators that a Rev.Roland post be removed because it was inappropriate. In fact most of Rev.Roland's posts have had a racist or sexist or offensive or aggressive or negative vein to them, and one wonders if the forum needs such a contributor - he brings no value to the forum. I also think it is unfair to include Brett in his rant / complaint - unless he has Brett's authority to do so.

I am very broad minded, and I am not politically correct (hence being excused jury duty), however I have never deemed it necessary to report anybody else's posts for removal (except my own following a rant one day!).

Like I say, just my opinion, which I'm entitled to... I've got human rights you know.

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:34 am 
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tr7v8 wrote:
Roland a slightly diluted version of what actually happened, yes?

Firstly it was me who deleted Bretts two posts at the time. Don't forget this was when he was banned from 2 forums to my knowledge. One of those being PCGB where he was being very vocal. He then started complaining long & loud everywhere else to the point where people just got fed up. He bought those complaints here & hacked everyone else off. Despite various warnings we deleted the specific posts, an overall ban would have been much quicker but we were more benevolent than PCGB.

As for your comment
"Second, I did rejoin this year, made a video of a small convoy to Portland, which some said they were looking forward to seeing and it was received favourably, yet Sean stepped in and in a derisive email claimed I had undermined the integrity of the club and every last man woman and child in the Southern Region."

Sean asked that you alter the title of the Video because we didn't like the phrase 'Car Chase' used in conjunction with what the club does. Not unreasonable? But you decided you didn't like the criticism & decided to take offense.
This is a national club & it can't have escaped even you that cars, especially Sports cars are not viewed in a good light by some people. Having a comment that could be viewed as inflammatory in todays times wasn't that wise.

As for having a regional committee that you keep banging on about I don't see what the problem is? I run a region with an ARO & it is as democratic as I can make it, if someone brings an idea to us then we'll discuss as a group & if we like it go ahead, very often with the originator organising it. If you want to kick something off in the area I'm sure Nick will be more than happy, providing he agrees with it. If that is big enough to warrant assistance then bring those in & if you want to call that a committee so what! What we cannot have is a club within a club which would achieve nothing.

As for empires then you know nothing of what goes on to run the club. We will run the club for the overall good of the members & I believe bearing in mind the climbing membership in a difficult meeting, plus the very successful National event a onth or so ago then that must be obvious that the club is doing well.

If you'd kept your membership then you could have come to the AGM & addressed these directly rather than using the forum as a pulpit.



Hi :)

Umm thats NOT how I remember it....

It was not 2 of my posts actually....

It was 1 of my threads and 1 of Rolands.....

And they were TOTALLY deleted and should have been locked if the person who deleted them did not like them....

We were told at the time it was SEAN who deleted them....

.....................................................................................................................

As far as the local area is concerned, when the Chairman of the club thinks "his view" of whats right and not right for the club Nationally, i.e. we locally cannot use the phrase CAR CHASE in a small local video.....thats stupid and childish and is following down the path that the PCGB descended to....

Since when did a single individual decide on whats right for the club ???

Free speech anyone ?

I thought you had a committee ?

Do they not have to make decisions ?

Or is it just Seans club now ?

Because if it is, you need to think about the results that will bring...

So far the club has lost my 1 years membership and Rolands 2 years membership fees...

Which if Sean had not intefered with local stuff you would still have in the clubs coffers....

To be honest the only hope i see that Tipec will not follow the PCGB into top down control that forgets its membership and forgets this is a car club are two things, firstly that this forum exists in a "fairly" free format (I am not banned yet lol so that says a lot) and secondly that locally the guys REALLY dont care what the "Top" says and we get on and enjoy our cars..

I really love my Porsche as most do I think...its just such a great shame that "politics" has to come into this at all :(

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:59 am 
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Brett, not going over this ad-infinitum but yes it may have been Sean who removed threads it is easier & less pain than locking & if it is contentious then saves spot deleting posts. Don't contravene the rules & it won't happen, simples eh?

Yup we do run as a committee & have lots of communication backwards & forwards but being a non-member by your own hand you wouldn't know that or care. As I said before if you'd stayed a member you could attend an AGM & have a voice but that doesn't the way you operate does it Brett much easier to snipe from the side lines?

This is one of the least political clubs I've been in for 45 years & long may it stay that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Hi :)

What "rule" did myself and Roland break to get our threads deleted ?

The "Sean didnt like our threads rule" ??

Thats precisely what I mean about a politically top ended organisation :(

I am a Moderator on various other forums and have NEVER deleted a whole thread.....its totally uneeded.... you can ask the person to change their post, or even lock the thread...

But deleting the whole thread just looks like censorship, and causes animosity....which is exactly what happened here.....no ?

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:07 pm 
The fact that completely different perceptions can exist at national and local level on more than one issue as highlighted in this thread, each side regarding the other as unreasonable on that issue, however well they may agree on other issues, confirms the sense of having autonomous regions.

There is no reason why functional aspects that make sense at a national level shouldn't continue.


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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Brett / Roland.

Why oh why oh why are you tryng to influence TIPEC???? You clearly don't like it, or the way it's run so you CHOOSE not to join.

My question is simple :

You ain't a member, therefore do NOT HAVE A VOICE. You cannot influence a club for which you have no membership card just the same as I cannot vote or comment on the way Barclays Bank is run. That's how membership works, eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:02 pm 
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Graham Waller wrote:
Brett / Roland.

Why oh why oh why are you tryng to influence TIPEC???? You clearly don't like it, or the way it's run so you CHOOSE not to join.

My question is simple :

You ain't a member, therefore do NOT HAVE A VOICE. You cannot influence a club for which you have no membership card just the same as I cannot vote or comment on the way Barclays Bank is run. That's how membership works, eh?


Hi Graham :)

You have missed the point totally...

We WERE both members when this happened !!!!

We quit AFTER it happened...both , but at different times....

This is NOT about joining...its about WHY we both LEFT Tipec.....

And why Tipec lost 3 years subs.....

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: Recommendation - Make Regions Autonomous
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:10 pm 
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I haven't missed the point.

You want to make suggestions as to how a club that you aren't a member of, is run - again I say, no membership, no voice.

And if you do want to influence it, why didn't you stay in? You could then bring up your concerns through the proper channels - the AGM, rather than leaving then bleating about it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over................God, I'm ready to self-harm.

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